I am in the planning stages of building a lake front home in <!—-><!—-> <!—->Tallahassee<!—-> <!—->FL. <!—-><!—-> <!—-><!—-><!—->
I am concerned about energy efficiency and have been considering SIP’s for the construction.<!—-><!—->
There are no builders in the area experienced in building with SIPs.<!—-> <!—->
Any suggestions, comments, or otherwise about SIP construction? <!—-><!—->
Thanks,
Lakeman
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Replies
Lakeman,
Consider instead a ICF home..
I used both SIP construction and ICF construction in my home in Minnesota the reason for SIP construction once I was out of the ground was simple. I needed the added insulational value.
(plus I gained strength back by double timberframing) so my home will withstand tornado's)
In Florida because you have both termites and hurricanes why not save yourself some costs by using an ICF home? Pretty hard to blow down concrete walls. Relatively easy to attach the roof in such a manner that it won't want to go flying whenever some big wind comes by.. plus no termite I know wants a diet of foam or concrete..
Most recently ICF homes have been price competitive with Stick built so there should be no premium. 5 years ago there was at least a 5% premium last year it was as high as 2% now it's priced the same..
just make sure your foam ( SIPS or ICF's ) are borate treated
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
What's the borate for, mike? I thought that was for insects... I've never used any here in Canada.
Borate, is for insect and rodent resistance. Sips are also very strong and storm resistant, to me it would depend a lot on the style and my skills. I built with SIP's. Tall walls and lots of small corners. I would have played he!! trying to do IFC construction. I like the flat straight walls in and out for siding and trimming.Be sure to get a true heatloss calculation done before you install your AC/heating plant. Three "scorched air" guys tried to sell me 120K BTU forced air systems, wow what overkill.My 80k mod con boiler has run a few times this year, otherwise the Morso 2110 wood stove has been doing the heating (40K max output) with a nice small fire. It's been below freezing for 5 days now.Good luck with your project.Garett
I understand about the 'help' that you get frome some folks.
In Florida you must have an engineers stamp on the plans and they are responsible for all the calculations, but I am still going to verify their requirements.
Thanks for the comments,
Lakeman
Mike Smith.
I'm not sure that it's needed if you use ICF's. Termites need to eat and if all they can eat is foam or concrete I suspect they won't like to live there. It would be a good idea to treat SIP's with borate though..
icf's create hidden paths for the termites.. paths that can't be inspected..
thus the borate treatmentMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike Smith
I understand it for SIP's and as I said I agree with you.. However if the whole wall is foam and concrete (OK sheet rock or stucco on the inside and out) the way they make ICF's what is there for the termites to eat? The window bucks are supposed to be made from pressure treated which is as I recall not attractive to termites either. While there may be wood in the furnature or doors etc.. the termites would have to be exposed to get to them..
they tunnel thru the foam unseen... there are many channels thru the concrete
once inside ... with no tell-tale mud tunnels.. they are free to get into the framing
in the south , most jurisdictions will not allow sips, or icf's unless they are treated
in the north ... most of the icf mfr's pretend that termites and vermin are not a problem in foam
but in fact , they are....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike Smith,
OK they can tunnel, I've accepted that, but what wood do they eat? Since you need pressure treated on the top plate bcause it's in contact with concrete they'd have to somehow figure a way around that to get to the roof trusses.. Most top plates cover the whole top from stucco on the outside to sheetrock etc,. on the inside.. So our hungary termite will dig it's way thru at the minimum 8 feet or more of foam and around a piece of pressure treated to get to roof trusses? Maybe in Hawaii where they are so agressive but since most homes are stick built I would think that the effort to find a few pieces of material to eat the termite would seek other places..
Speculation here and not a statement. aren't some of the southern woods kinda not liked by termites anyway? Are those woods used for trusses?
Mike Smith,
By the way, we don't have Termites here in Minnesota we also don't have cockroaches, except those that are brought here from out of state and they die off during our winters,..... usually
frenchy... you do have termites.. just not a lot of them
http://www.extension.umn.edu/projects/yardandgarden/AAMG/insects-in/largeants.html
also .. you do have cockroaces.. and they don't die off in the winter
and you certainly have carpenter ants in the same abundance as any place else in the US
once any of those vermin get into foam , it is almost impossible to treat them.. which is why the only foam i allow on our jobs has to be Perform-Guard ( borate treated )
do you inspect your top plates ?
if not then you will never know if the termites have crossed them and gotten into your untreated framing
and no... there is no southern species of wood that i know that is termite or carpenter ant proof
locust might be what you are thinking of , but it is not that resistent either
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 12/6/2006 12:32 pm ET by MikeSmith
Mike Smith,
Sorry, I seldom go to links unless I am willing to accept whatever viruses they contain for whatever information is in them.. Just not clever enough about computers.. don't want to be, have no real nead to be..
58 years of living here and I've never seen a Minnesota termite, (remember I visit most every building site in the state). Yes we have carpenter ants and yes sometimes cockroaches are brought into the state and a few might even be able to winter over.. given the right circumstances.. perhaps you are thinking of boxelder bugs? they look similar and are relatively common in the fall.
I spent 7 1/2 yars in San Diegio so I know how common they are.. I have visited much of the south and east coast and understand what a pest they are..
As for termite resistant wood if I'm not mistaken they discussed that on This Old House when they did the series on Key West
I used Panels that were made with Borate and the OSB was Borate treated (can't remember the trade name just now) But I did that for the carpenter ants not out of fear of termites.. as for termites crossing the top plate, I think you would see them if you think about it.. a termite tunnel is rather distinctive and would be visable.. heck my wife can spot a spider at 50 feet! a mud tunnel wuld send her into a tizzy!
This is the info from the link Mike posted; it's from the U of M extension service web page.
Termites occasionally live in Minnesota, but they are uncommon. They are most often found in the metropolitan area. Carpenter ants are the most common large ant-like insect we have here. It is fairly simple to distinguish the two. Termites are considerably lighter in color than ants, usually a light grayish color, and they are generally never found out of doors. . Go to the first Extension site to identify the difference between carpenter ants and termites, and to the second to identify which ant you have:http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/housingandclothing/DK1015.htmlhttp://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/housingandclothing/components/1066b.htmlIf you still have a problem identifying which ants have been living with you, you can capture some of them and bring or send them to the University Yard and Garden Clinic, where Extension employees can identify them (for a small fee) and recommend how to deal with them. You'll need to scoop up 5-10 of the ants, (use a clean sheet of paper) and freeze them in tight containers, without squashing them, or put them in a jar of alcohol. If you have more than one kind, separate them if you can and label them with where they were found. Their address in St Paul, on the University campus, is: 155 Alderman Hall, 1970 Folwell Avenue on the St. Paul Campus. Here's the link to the Yard and Garden clinic site:http://www.extension.umn.edu/yardandgarden/ygclinic.htmlAn occasional ant, carpenter or other type, may visit indoors, and can easily be killed or vacuumed up. Since an established colony of carpenter ants can cause considerable damage to the wooden structure of a house, it's important to locate the site of their colony. Often, a slow plumbing leak, or an old window frame may stay damp for years; this is a favorable environment for Carpenter Ants. Ending the source of moisture may be enough to discourage the ants, but if the damage is great and the colony well established, you may need to call for help. If you have carpenter ants in your house, you may want to consider using the services of a pest management professional. The more knowledgeable you are about the available control options, the better you will be able to choose who does the control and evaluate their plans.It's also a good idea to store firewood as far away as possible from the house, and not in an attached garage. Occasionally, Carpenter Ants will pass from live or decaying tree limbs to a building, so it's also a good idea to trim overhanging limbs well away from your home.
As far as the roaches go, I don't know what would happen to them if they had to spend the winter outdoors, but I'm sure there are plenty of them living year around in some of the apartment buildings in my neighborhood here in south Minneapolis....
Edited 12/6/2006 3:24 pm by Stuart
Stuart
Thank you for that.. Uncommon? really must be darn rare, I've visited countless job sites for nearly 5 decades and never seen a single termite.. many carpenter ants as the article said but never a termite colony.
Cockroaches probably do exist here in a few locations but the winters are against them. I'm willing to bet they are imports and die when exposed to our winters..
cockroaches live indoors... there is no winter for them.. and no summer
just paradise in some houses.. they live inside the walls and uder the floors, under the refrigerators... behind the stove..
in back of the sink cabinet
in the closets, down in the basement
... as far as never seeing a termite.. neither have i
but if i put a stick in the ground in my garden.... even if it's PT, it will be eaten from the ground level downMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike Smith,
I've seen cockroaches in some apartments occupied by those from warmer climates.. rare but it happens occasionally here.. Usually winter is enough to kill off many of them. We have open doors and power failures here as well. I've never really looked into the food chain at that level so I don't know if with reduced population they fall victum to spiders and such or simply fail to breed or whatever. I do know houses that have poor housekeeping here are never over run with cockroaches the way they would be in warmer climates..
You could leave the sweetist piece of sugar pine lying around forever in Minnesota and never find a single termite bite.. carpenter ants sure, beatles and other bugs yeh! but not termites.
termites wil be quite happy to eat the paper off your sheet rock.
paul42
eat the paper off your sheetrock? Aren't termites afraid of light? Isn't that why they build tunnels? I don't know, just something I read someplace.. we don't have termites here In Minnesota..
They build tunnels under the paper and eat the cardboard backing. There may be no sign of them until it is time for them to swarm - and you could walk into a room full of flying termites. Termites love cardboard.
I had considered ICF, but have the same problem; no experienced builders.
They are probably stronger, but we are about 25 miles from town on a dirt road and I suspect that we will have a problem getting the trucks to the site.
I believe tht most of the SIPs are treated now, at least in the south, so I think the termite problem will be OK.
Thanks for the comments,
Lakeman
Some SIP suppliers will send their own crews for the install.
Check with SIPA http://www.sips.org for a manufacturer closest to you and see if they will send a crew out.
Also, borates are for the foam only. It is expensive and marginally effective to treat the OSB. In your area I would say you need to take all the standard precautions for pests that you would on any other home.
jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
Edited 12/5/2006 2:50 pm ET by jross
FH Editor John Ross just did a blog on SIP school. There's a link on the homepage, but here it is as well:
http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/