sips home/ interior window moisture
My husband & I built a sips home last year. We’re located in upstate NY & have a wicked wind kick through our valley almost daily. We installed radiant heat in the slab & second floor, haven’t had the time or energy to run the tubing on the main floor yet. Water is heated with a Polaris Gas water heater.
Here’s the problem: all interior windows (Anderson H.P.) are covered in a damp sweat 1/4″-3/4″ water with beads of it laying on the sill from now until spring. I’ve got all colors of mold on my interior mullions. I’d hate to have to start repainting since I haven’t even fininshed the trim yet! As you can imagine the NW facing windows are the worse.
Obviously a whole house ventilation system is my ticket but I can tell right off that my husband doesn’t want to go there. What does it involve? Would a whole house dehumidifer work? Painting the basement walls with a sealer? Any suggestions or ideas that I could do myself would be great but if its a ventilation system we’ll do it. We plan on insulating the entire basement any day now……
Thanks for your input, Beth
Replies
Would a whole house dehumidifer work?
Yes.
It is hard to tell if you are living in the house or just constructing it.
In any case you are putting a lot of moisure into the air - perhaps drywall compound, perhaps showers, perhaps basement seepage. You need to control that moisture.
If you can identify the moisture source and control the source, you will be better off than controlling the whole house problem.
We're living in it & doing the work as we come by additionial money & time. I only checked one website & they have a dehumidifer for 2,200 sq. ft. house, $1,699! Wow, but it's a heck of lot less than having my sills rot out slowly. Thanks for your input GeorgeR, have you encoutered this problem?
First you need to determine where the moisture is coming from.
One possible source (not likely, but potentially deadly) is from backdrafting of your water heater.
Flue gases have a lot of water vapor in them which can be the source of such condensation if the water heater is not vented properly.
Poor venting is more likely in a tightly constructed house such as one built wit sips.
As a first check, turn the temp up to make it fire up and hold your hand next to the bonnet, You shouldn't feel any heat coming out for more than a few seconds.
Look under the bonnet for rust stains, and look on the flue, especially at any bends for condensation or rust.
If you feel heat continually coming out, or see much rust or condensation marks, you need to have the flue checked and to make sure there is an adequate air supply to the room.
If there isn't, you could have a serious carbon monoxide problem.
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
Seems like a lot of water to me. Your new home would have some moisture but not that much. Your location has drying cold winds in winter.
You have to be producing moisture without ventilation at all. Do you not have bathroom, kitchen and laundry room exhausts in your new home?
Your home may also be lacking air circulation as well.
For the time being I would agree that you have to run a dehumidifier to get rid of all that moisture but more important is finding the source.
Gabe
From what you describe, it does seem like an excessive amount of moisture. Could you possibly have a small leak in the radiant heating tubes? A friend of mine had her kitchen redone with Pex tubing. A bad compression fitting put out just enough of a spray that it wasn't easily noticed but was enough to keep the subfloor wet in an area which swelled up making a rather large mound in the middle of the kitchen.
Our water heater is a high efficiency/sealed w/blower. We also used the pex tubing & have eliminated that as a source. Both kitchen & one bathroom vent outdoors & are working properly. The problem now seems so obvious that I'm laughing at myself for always expecting my husband to deal with all issues beyond my knowledge.
Our daughter's bathroom which we all use (not enough funds to complete the master bathroom) has a good size cutout on an interior wall that looks out into the foyer. The plan was to eventually put in stained glass or something simple but decorative. My husband who is now standing right here next to me said "Tell them your the one that steams up the whole house because you take long hot showers." So I can either quit showering or temporarily put some plastic up with my wonderful duct tape solution. I'll try that today & see if we temporarily solve the problem.
Thanks so much for everyone's input, brainstorming really works. Have a great weekend. May the bow hunters be successful!
Beth
Beth, radiant heat is a beautiful thing. We have lived in comfort for 14 yrs. However, with no forced air moving around, we too experience condensation on the bottoms of some of our glass. House plants and cooking contribute quite a bit of moisture to the house. Not necessarily too much, but enough to condense on glass in the coldest weather. By running ceiling fans you can minimize the condensation a bit. The goal would be to wash the windows with moving air. I think you would have to get the humidity levels down to below comforable with a humidifier to stop the moisture on the glass. Have you ever taken a humidity reading in the house?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I hadn't realized that you could test for humidity but will look into that. Can you do it yourself with a kit or do you have to hire someone? We're of the do-it-yourself-following. I'm faithful about using the vent while cooking & showering. We've left a fan going downstairs & upstairs because we also considered the fact that we needed to circulate air. It just really bothers me to see so much water constantly.
We love the radiant heat. The SIPS construction is extremely airtight which also doesn't allow for any airflow except for the front door (quality poor). I deep down believe that had we known this was going to be an issue that I would have definitely pushed to installed a whole house ventilation system with our type of wind tunnel, NW window placement & cold winters. Wish I had researched this prior to building or at least sheet rocking.
Thanks for the tip on humidity testing.
One - Any house that is new makes a greater than average amt of moisture/water vapour
Two - Any house that is lived in produces Water Vapour. If you are taking steamy showers, that is only a small part of it. Transpiration for a human living under the roof can produce six cups per day of water. Breathe on a cool mirror and see s sample of it when you fog it up. So a heated arguement with hubby will only add to the total amt of water in the air.
;)
Three - Any SIP house should have a ventilation and heat recovery system as part of the design because it is such a tight house.
Temprorary solution is to crack the windows open a hair to let the place breathe.
Long term - install the system and finish the house..
Excellence is its own reward!
I hadn't realized that you could test for humidity but will look into that. Can you do it yourself with a kit or do you have to hire someone?
We continuously monitor our humidity with a Bionaire Temperature & Humidity Monitor from Grainger, item 4E420 (http://www.Grainger.com). It's worked great for the last 8 yrs with 2 battery changes.
Our concrete house is so tight that we'd be very uncomfortable without an air system providing our 2 hr total air change (utilizing a heat exchanger) that includes a dehumidifier in the air stream, used seasonally. These are simple and inexpensive to set up if the ductwork is available. I assembled our heat exchanger for less than $100. Turned out to be over 80% efficient. You want 40-60% rh.
More than a few guests have remarked on our indoor air quality.
Sounds like you need to get crackin'.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I'll add another voice those above with the same sorta conclusions. In a tight house you HAVE TO take measures to monitor and control both humidity and air quality. We have a comparably tight house, and keep humidity be/t 35 and 45% year-round through the use of a dehumidification system. It runs more than the A/C in the summer. Also check for the quality of the air--easy to build up CO or CO2 in a tight house. I'm with those who say it doesn't matter what y'all want to install or not--with that type of house, you're gonna have to do _something_. And the smaller the house the more of an issue it is, be/c the normal household activities--cooking, showering, plants, breathing, sweating--will add proportionately more to the air than in a house with a larger volume.
Are there any off the shelf products to monitor the levels of indoor pollutants?
The actual levels of CO would be good to know, pollens, I spose, CO2 vs. O2, maybe VOC's? etc. , etc.
This could be important to me because I'm building a large SIP house with an HRV. If the HRV cycles only on humidity, those pollutants could be building up between cycles, but running it all the time could be wasteful.
Telaire makes a CO2 monitor. It displays the CO2 levels and calculates and displays the CFM/person ventilation rate in any building or room. Private label also. Costs about $400. My HVAC guy also has a CO monitor. Cost plenty. Humidistats are easy to come by. Don't know if there are efficient all-in-one units, but would be interested if someone knew.
For CO detectors, check out http://www.aeromedix.com.
Look for the CO Experts Model 2002 - Low-level carbon monoxide monitor
_______________________
Albert Einstein said it best:
“Problems,” he said, “cannot be solved at the same level of consciousness that created them.”
Your mileage may vary ....
Edited 10/20/2003 10:51:56 AM ET by Bob Walker
Came across some other products and am wondering what y'all think about the options...
http://windupradio.com/oregon/airquality.htm presumes to measure air quality through VOC's, though it only really seems to measure acetone. $99 SRP (saw it as low as 65) Does measure temp and humidity.
http://www.process-controls.com/enercorp/air_quality_monitors_controllers.htm is sensitive to a wide variety of air pollutants such as carbon monoxide, ketones, aldehydes, esters benzene, alcohols, hydrogen, reducing hydrocarbons, and cigarette smoke. It's closer to $900. What's interesting is that while it doesn't measure CO2, they claim the trace elements they measure track proportionately to CO2, and so you'll accomplish the same goal.
Anyone know of any that work well?
And further re co monitors: 31507.7
_______________________
Albert Einstein said it best:
“Problems,” he said, “cannot be solved at the same level of consciousness that created them.”
Your mileage may vary ....
one of the sensor elements either co or o2 are always "on" as they are exposed to air and therefore only last a year or so.
Hi Beth
One last thought! We had the same problem the first winter. SIP's with radiant in cement. The cement takes along time to really dry. We had moisture for all the first winter.
JIll
JMagill-Did you install a HRV & do you live in a cold climate? Have you installed any of the testing units that the others have described?
My husband is going to check on a dehumidifer for the basement today but I think that's a minute portion of the overall issue. Guess my real challenge is getting him to agree to a HRV.
After reading all the messages we are huge producers of moisture: pets, cook large dinners daily, showers, plants, exercising, etc.
We did not use the sips for our roofing material so at least I don't have to worry about that rotting. This is pretty darn interesting stuff I must say! Your teaching me tons & errors can be costly. It's too bad the place that we purchased it from didn't mention ventilation.
We have not put in an HRV. We have done most of this ourselves and even still need to get to some of the bathroom vents.
We are in an a very cold climate( Wyoming). The first winter the windows were always wet. It was the cement. SIP's are much tighter and a venting system of kind(HRV) should be installed. It is on our to do list. WE are lucky here as it is a dry climate. We have no testing units. We only have the problem in extreme cold weather now. The cement gave off moisture for over a year. That first winter was like living in a rain forest, cooking , showering etc almost created rain. I would recomend a dehumidifier.
Jill
"We did not use the sips for our roofing material"
Hopefully, your roofing material is shingles or metal, but do tell what is the entire ceiling, insulation, ventilation, roof pachage made up of. That ca n be important to this discussion..
Excellence is its own reward!
The roof consists of plywood sheathing, 40 yr shingles, ridge vent, vented soffits & two 3' circular vents on either ends of our home. Two layers of R-19 on attic floor for insulation. After thinking about why we didn't do HRV initially, came to the conclusion that with the pitch of our roof (9-12) & all that venting, along with the theory that heat & moisture rise that we'd have it seep up & out. We took a chance & came up short.
Is your FG batts faced or unfaced? Do you have another kind of VapourBar? Are there any signs of moisture condensing in the attic space or surfaces? did you seal penetrations to the attic tight?
My BIL, Had a problem like yours. His house was extrememly tight, and the concrete in the basement was offgassing lots of vapour at first. He klept windows cracked to let it vent for the first year and then no more trouble after that..
Excellence is its own reward!
Your husband may not want an HRV (heat recovery ventilator), but he should understand that's part of the deal with a SIP home. Done right, they are so airtight that they absolutely require whole house ventilation. The issue is without a doubt going beyond some moisture on your windows.
SIPs got a bad rap early on because of rot problems in the OSB skins of roof panels. If you have a SIP roof, you are almost guaranteeing rot (and mold) by not ventilating. In addition, you are likely spending the heating season living in a toxic soup of stale, polluted air, a result of off-gassing, heating, cooking, and breathing.
Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
I'd like to echo what "jmagill" said - You might be getting a lot of moisture wicking out of your concrete. You have a lot of concrete to cure with radiant heat and a basement.
I'd suggest putting a dehumidifier in the basement and see how much difference that makes.
You can get a small humidity gauge (Can't think of the correct name) that reads more or less like a thermometer. I got one at a hardware store. That might give you an idea of what your humidity levels are both upstairs and in the basement.
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