Even though I grew up in West (By God) Virginia, it’s not that kind of sistering ….
I was hanging some can lights in my basement when my buddy noticed one of the joists was delaminating. Upon closer inspection, the joist was sagging about 5/8 inch in one spot where the bottom laminations were cracked. Directly above this joist is the open area to the living room with the weight of the bedroom above it supported by two framed lally columns. One column was directly above the sag near an exterior wall. The joist is about 40′ across the whole basement but supported in the middle by a steel I beam. I had framed in one wall along the exterior wall and another partition wall about 14′ away.
Using every jack I own and could borrow, I carefully jacked the joist back into level. Then I ripped 5/8″ plywood and glued it onto the webbing to try and stiffen the joist. After that I wedged in a 16′ 2×12 on either side and bolted through the whole “sandwich” with 1/2″ bolts. Do you think I should do anything else or should have done something different? The builder is long gone and I’m pretty sure the warranty is useless. Tough to get somebody to come look at a job this small around here (Northern Va.)
Thanks for any advice or feedback. Meanwhile, two days later, my wife’s asking why it takes so long to put in lights. Rick
Replies
Sounds to me like somebody screwed up in a major way. If that I-joists was delaminating it was way overloaded.
You need a beam there - Not an I-joists with some plywood on the side. I'd strongly recommend having someone come in to look at the house and determine what kind of support is needed.
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Honestly - I look for more and more of this type of stuff to start showing up over the next few years. With houses getting bigger, they are going to 1.5 story houses without really considering how to support the second floor loads properly. (At least in this area) This isn't the first case like this I've heard of.
Blessed are the censors; they shall inhibit the earth.
Sounds like he just did put a beam in there.
Still , have someone take a look at it. There is no substitute for an on-site inspection. If that column is close enough to the outside wall Rick should be fine with what he has done.
"Sounds like he just did put a beam in there."
What he did isn't a beam - Just an I-joist with some plywood on the side. Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.
What about the 2-2x12's ?
am I seeing things?
Yes you're seeing things.
He didn't mention 2X12s.
Just don't go back and look at the first post to double check..............(-:
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O.K., I missed that. So sue me.
Still - A 16' 2X12 won't carry much of anything. Unless the bedroom is awfully tiny, he still needs to have someone look the situation over.I had to give up sunbathing on the beach - People from Greenpeace kept coming by and trying to push me back in the awter.
Three of them will especially if the point load is close to the bearing point.
Thats what he has with his remedy.
Still it is a very good idea to have a 3rd party who knows what they are looking at to take a peek.
3rd party who knows what they are looking at to take a peek.<<
I would suggest that this "3rd party" be a PE or architect, and it should happen sooner rather than later, the laminate may have been poorly manufactured OR the design is poor and there may be more structural problems in waiting, fixing this may transfer the failure mode to another structural member that may be failing as we discuss this
"Three of them will especially if the point load is close to the bearing point."
He doesn't have 3, he only has 2. Plus an I-joist with some plywood stuck to the side of it.
You don't really know if it's close to a bearing point or not - His description could be 100% correct, outright wrong, or anywhere in between.
And you don't know how well the thing is put together. If not well assembled, it might be basically worthless. Since we can't see it, we have no idea.
You also have no idea how big the bedroom above it is, and if there's roof load on the walls. He could be dealing with a real mess.
And if there's a problem here, what did the framer do with the rest of the house? Are there other similar problems?
Having the structure evaluated is the only intelligent response. Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself.
The way that I understand this forum operates is that people post a question asking for response from people who might have some experience with their particular problem.
That is precisely what I have done.
I agree with you that the wise course of action is to have someone come in an verify that this is structuraly sound. I believe that I stated this earlier.
Given the information that was provided IMHO he should be ok.
This of course should be verified in the field. I doubt that anybody in their right mind would take the opinion of someone they never met and have not seen , in person, their particular situation as being the way it must be done.
The gentleman was seeking personal experiences or opinions. Which is exactly what I have provided.
I know and you know that this forum is no substitute for an onsite engineer or architect.....so please don't get so pissy or am I taking this the wrong way?
yeeesh!!!
I would like to add one other thing.
If a person asks a question of a structular nature and the only intelligent response is "get an engineer" where is the value in that can you imagine if that was the only response that people received on this forum?
The place would be a ghostown as opposed to the lively and very entertaining discussion forum that it is.
Edited 1/23/2003 12:30:08 PM ET by benny
"The way that I understand this forum operates is that people post a question asking for response from people who might have some experience with their particular problem."
I have experience in this area, and I did answer his question. But I was concerned that he might take your foolish advice, so I felt compelled to respond.
"Given the information that was provided IMHO he should be ok."
As I stated before, you don't have enough info to make that determination. Nobody here does. That's why I said your advice was foolish.
"so please don't get so pissy or am I taking this the wrong way?"
I don't thin I was "pissy" at all - I just strongly disagree with you. I never said anything out of line, or insulted you personally.
"If a person asks a question of a structular nature and the only intelligent response is "get an engineer" where is the value in that can you imagine if that was the only response that people received on this forum?"
If you go back and read his first post, he said: "Do you think I should do anything else or should have done something different?" He isn't sure what he needs, which is why he asked.
Maybe you missed that part, just like I missed the 2X12s the first time through.Cancer cures smoking.
Boss, I wish you would read the posts.
Every single one of them I recommended an on-site expert to look at the problem.
This agrees with what you suggested he do. Still I don't see a problem with the solution he has allready come up with , its sounds like he has a good grasp of the situation and was looking for additional opinions .
and I'm sorry but I still get the impression that you are being a little pissy.
try to relax....
If anyone's being pissy, it's you.
You gave poor advice, then get upset when you get called on it.
Maybe you're the one who needs to relax a little..........Never do card tricks for the group you play poker with.
Ok Boss , reading back I suppose to does sound like I was leaning toward the "pissy" side a little...
I'm very sorry that Rick's question has led to you and I sniping at each other.
I apologize.......but how is my advice any different from yours?
We both think that he should get someone to look at it , preferably an engineer, but he stated that he would have a difficult time in getting someone out there. I simply gave my opinion based on the information he gave.
Once again I'm sorry for the earlier tone .
Rick, Good Luck!
I'm also sorry if I came a cross as being snippy.
My basic problem with your post(s) was when you said what he did was "Probably O.K.". (Or something along that line) I think that's where the difference of opinion came in.Q: Why do cowboys want to die with their boots on?A: So they don't stub their toes when they kick the bucket
i think it started by cowboys who wore their boots in bed for better traction!
You just gave your opinion that he was OK, is all - and like your personal quote in your profile says, it ain't worth much.
;)
It was based on insufficient information. The onsite PE is what is needed. That was obvious from his description.
IMO
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Excellence is its own reward!
If a person asks a question of a structular nature and the only intelligent response is "get an engineer" where is the value in that can you imagine if that was the only response that people received on this forum?" <<
I am afraid that when dealing with structural failures, the ONLY intelligent response is "get an engineer" (or architect). Relying on the internet for advice for a potential life threatening issue is ludicrous. What if you follow the advice of some layman and someone gets hurt.
Engineers, architects go to school for many years to answer questions like this, a handyman with a reference book is no substitute.
Its like a medical forum, if someone writes in with a hangnail, layman advice has less risk of serious injury (cut the hangnail off), but if you write in with pain in left arm, chest pain, etc, then the ONLY correct answer is "you should go to see a doctor now"!
Edited 1/23/2003 4:17:46 PM ET by Haole27
Thanks everybody for all your responses. I'm sure the right thing to do is have an engineer look at it. I am an electrical engineer but that really hasn't helped much. :)
After I get the electrical done, I'll get the plumbing and electrical inspections. Then I hope whoever does the framing inspection will take a good look at what I've done. I visited a neighbors house that owns the same model. Their same joist was starting to sag but wasn't as bad as mine. I think it may be a design flaw but will need an expert to confirm. BTW, I tried the plywood on the sides both to fill the space and because the TJI web site suggested it for strengthening the webbing. Thanks again for the help.
Rick
Web stiffeners are typically to keep a web from being crushed be/t the weight above and the column below. They are used not only on i-joists, but also i-beams and steel joists. They aren't typical for increasing the loading. Additional, or larger, beams/joists (or more columns) are typically used for great load-carrying capacity.
I wouldn't wait until you have your plumbing and electrical done. Suppose the only way this can be appropriately corrected is to replace this patch job with a triple LVL and that you have drilled wires through it. Or suppose that you have plumbed to drain according to the present set of things with a slight sag and that when you replace it to correct the sag, the plumbing lines then flow the wrong way. Or suppose that in jacking things around, you pop a joint in the copper. With the framing wrong as it is now, it could still fail and leave you with additional costs.
Your additions to the web will help you from splitting the flanges and buckling the web only if they fit tight between top and bottom flanges. The web can act as a knife when the joist is under extreme load. The delamination you see is that force pushing plies apart. Your joist is suffering badly from both compressive and tensile forces way beyond what it was intended to handle. Like an EMT tending an accident victim, You have put a splint on it for transport to the hospital, but you shouldn't expect it to climb any mountains just yet.
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Excellence is its own reward!
umm.... I thought I read somewhere that web stiffeners were supposed to be left with an 1/8" gap. Towards the top if the load is from above and from the bottom if that's the bearing point.
OOPS! better consult an engineer!
God help whoever responds to that other joist sistering question.
I am not an engineer and my opinion means nothing.
That's on new instalations to let the load come to it. This unit is already in compression exceeding it's limits. The goal now is to prevent it from becoming a pile of splinters on the floor..
Excellence is its own reward!
You make an excellent point about the remainder of the structure. It should be evaluated by a professional.
The fix that was made has only addressed one point load. It is obvious that the spot that delaminated was not built adequately, and as you said there are potential unknowns left. An engineer or inspector can better evaluate the problems which lay in wait.
Rick:
There are several paths you could take.
1) Get the building inspection dept to look at it for free. They had to look at it in the first place and should have recognized any problems. The up side is that they could assist in getting the contractor to make any corrections. Warranty should not be an issue when it comes to faulty work/design. The down side would be if the contractor has dissapeared from the face of the earth and now you have to deal with getting a permit and contractor.
2) Take your set of house plans and pictures of concerned areas to a lumber yard that sells I joists. They should have a qualified person to provide you with a repair, or should be able to contact someone from the manufacturer of the I joists.
3) Hire an Architect or Engineer.
Keep in mind 2 and 3 will certainly cost you money. 1 may not. You paid for a house. Not a house that requires a repair.
Get an engineer to look at. He could tell you in about five minutes if you are okay or not.
If you need more support try sistering on 1/4" x 12" x however long your basement is steel plates (one on each side). It doesn't add much to the dimension but it adds an incredible amount of strength.
Good luck,
Matt-