Hello , i recently re-constructed a front porch , in connecticut. I used windsor one primed materials. Each column began with a 4 x 4 then wrapped 4 sides, then many pieces of trim applied to make them ornate as were the ones we demolished. It came out great each column has aprox. 90 +/- pieces. i know hard to believe. They came out nice . Problem is a lot of the pieces have now seperated after some weathering ( less than a month) I will need to return to site to make repairs. Needless to say very dissapointing. Question is what materials should I have used? And what should I use to make repairs ? MDF? Fir? ??? Any suggestions appreciated … thanks Rob
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
The RealTruck AMP Research Bedsteps give you easy access to your truck-bed storage.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
Your problems are almost certainly moisture-related. If your materials were too wet (possible) or too dry (less likely), joints could open as things change size and shape as the water content changes. Or, things got wet after you finished. How well were the columns finished and protected by flashing or the roof at the top?
Many large columns have openings at the top and bottom to permit air flow through them. I suspect your problems are more acute than the chronic type that ventilation would prevent.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
thanks Al , I suppose air flow is the underlying problem and of course moisture too. oh well .. Live and learn. Thanks for your input. Shotsy
Like Al said, moisture related. I don't know "windsor one primed materials". My guess is you have a design error of not appropriately dealing with crossbanding which then didn't adequately allow for movement. Hollow columns usually work a lot better. What was that 4x4? And why? Got a picture?
The failed columns I've seen were never vented inside. The ones I've made all were.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Venting sounds like the problem, The 4x4 s were to hold up the roof above which was way out of wack when we began ...we then wrapped the 4x4s with the primed material etc. any how now that i have blundered Tell me what would you do tear down? and start over or do you have any better ideas? there are approx 100 pieces of trim per column x 4. Tear down is not appealing to me , however I dont want a call back at the same project every year. Thanks for any / all advice. Shotsy
Can you post a pic? I've gotta see 100 pcs of trim on one column. I've got 8 on my posts, and that seems busy...'course I am very lazy...too lazy to pick out a pic and post it<G> EliphIno!
I'll work on the pics. yes really ...100 each .
I would concur with the rest of the crowd. Sounds like the moisture is causing a lot of movement. Is it primarily the trim and mouldings that are separating or are the columns opening up as well? How were the columns actually assembled?
Do you have the ability to discreetly install any vents in the columns? I just finished building columns for a porch in the same manner as you did and was able to allow for a 1" vent in the bottom of the base and a 1" vent at the very top to allow for air flow. Unless you went looking for them, you'd never see the upper and you'd have to have an inspection mirror to see the bottom one. You can also retrofit small "thimble" vents which can work in conjunction with larger vents or on their own. They're very low profile, even when installed in visible locations. Check the FHB archives. John Michael Davis wrote a great article on exterior trim that addressed drainage/ventilation and lasting caulk joints. That was where I first heard about the thimble vents. It was maybe two years ago??? Tons of fantastic info that might be especially useful in your situation.
Miles
Thanks for the input.... The columns were assembled around a 4x4 support post, starting with a vertical perimeter wrapped tight and glued to the 4x4, hence my problem with air flow ... it is an 1800's house and the idea was to match what we took down, of course those dummy's didn't put a 4x4 in there's no... they put four pieces of 1 x material together leaving the center hollow ... those dummy's. I always thought that was shoddy construction and did not lend itself to support of the roof above. Oh well. who's the dummy now. I think the only right thing to do would be to take them down and start fresh, unfortunately. there is no vent space available to tap into. What material do you think might work best when combining the four pieces together to form the column ? Remember there is a load above. Fir ir Pine or other? Thanks, Shotsy
Wow. I'm not envious of your position. That's not a good situation no matter how you look at it. It really depends on whether you want to salvage what you've done or if you want to start over from scratch. Given that you said that you glued the wrap to the 4x4, I'd guess it might be tough to salvage anything.
Either way, I'd suggest that you're absolutely on the right track with wrapping the 4x4. Unless you've got (at least) 5/4 VG fir, I'd be hesitant to use the outer wrap to carry the load, although I don't recall if you mentioned what kind of load it's carrying. I'd stick to the inner load bearing column and keep the outer wrap as the trim element that it is meant to be. Although, to be honest, I've seen quite a few columns that were nothing more than true 1x stock glued and nailed together and they all seemed to be handling the load pretty well. If it were me, I'd stick with VG fir or use MDO plywood as was previously suggested since it's going to be substantially more stable than wood and takes paint really well.
You mentioned that you didn't have any spacing between the 4x4 and the interior of the column wrap. If I were to make a guess, I'd speculate that attaching the outer column to the 4x4 was possibly where things went bad. If you allow the 4x4 and the wrap to "float" independently of each other, they can adjust to moisture and temp independently of one another without any ill effects. I'd try for at least a 1/2" space on each side of the 4x4. I don't think you mentioned whether it was KD PT or not, but even the kiln dried PT is usually not as dry as you'd ideally like it to be, especially if you get the ones that were in the middle of the rack. You have to figure that the 4x4 is going to continue to move as it dries out, possibly quite a bit, so leave some space to allow for that movement.
Assuming that you can expand the footprint of the column a bit, I'd suggest that you install the 4x4 to the column base and column cap with simpson post base brackets and/or wrap the columns with narrow blocking to register the outer column to the base and cap. Allow for some ventilation, drilling your holes wherever you can do so in an inconspicuous manner and/or use the mouldings to hide the vent holes. Biscuit the outer column together, using polyurethane glue or epoxy and make sure it's all backprimed with a good oil base primer. As long as the outer wrap can move independently of the inner 4x4, you should have a better time of it.
If you're restricted on the dimension of the column and can't build new columns to a larger footprint to allow for some space between each side of the 4x4 and the outer wrap, you're stuck trying to make the same basic materials work in a manner that allows for some air movement. You can rebuild the columns, redimensioning the 4x4 to allow for some space between each side and the column wrap. Or maybe you can take a little from both sides of the equation? Take a bit off the 4x4 and expand the outer column dimension a bit? A quarter or three eighths from each one would go a long way towards venting that moisture. You might have to settle for a smaller air space, but as long as it's there and it's reasonable, you should be OK.
You might even consider using some of the matrix that's used under cedar shingles and wrap the 4x4 before installing the outer column wrap as a little insurance to guarantee you've got some air flow to allow the moisture to escape. Yeah, I know, it sounds a bit odd, but sometimes you have to get creative. All you have to do is find a way to keep that moisture from getting trapped.
No matter what you decide to do, make sure you take some photos (before and after) and post them. It sounds like you really put a lot of time and effort into these columns. I'd sure like to see them.
Good luck!
Miles
Tear down is not appealing to me , however I dont want a call back at the same project every year.
I certainly don't envy your position. Tough call.
Nor, without seeing it, would I assume that venting would solve the problem. As YesMa'am pointed out, the crossbanding will work with a relatively stable substrate. That's assuming you crossbanded. There are other methods that will work but they're tricky and too late now.
Allowing for wood movement is Job 1 in woodworking. Exploding pieces are aggravating. And all too common.
If you end up replacing, bring your design back and get opinions. I'm not suggesting that replacement is inevitable, just likely.
Good luck. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks for your feedback, I do think replacement is the right thing to do as much as the idea haunts me I think it must be done. Having come to that realization... what method would you recomend, remembering these columns are bearing a load from above. A roof. I was thinking leaving the 4x4's and applying vertical strip alonfg the corners to allow for air movement then wrapping the columns. Ahhhh but with what material ? An exterior plywood? or stick with coventional materials? Any advice appreciated. The rest of the trim is ornamental so that would be the same. thanks Shotsy
Ahhhh but with what material ? An exterior plywood? or stick with coventional materials? Any advice appreciated. The rest of the trim is ornamental so that would be the same.
I'm still a little confused as to what failed. Did you nail/glue trim across the grain (cross-banding)? I would have predicted your vertical corners to have opened with your laminating to the 4x4.
A method that worked fine for me was to use 4 solid lumber sides (hollow center) with good joinery, biscuits and miters work, or another joint. I'm not crazy about plywood, but if you want to cross-band, it's probably your best bet. Using quarter sawn lumber and the right glue will also prevent cross-banding movement failure. Another method would be to use sliding dovetails (French dovetails) to allow the substrate to move a little, independent of the trim. Both of these pretty much require use of a moisture meter to know what you're working with.
This is where it's difficult to advise. Don't really know what failed. Without knowing your loads, I certainly can't say you have no structural problem, but I'd assume not. I'd use a structural glue like resorcinol for the column.
You posted that the originals were hollow and you originally thought it sloppy craftsmanship. There's a lot to be said for the trial of time. What worked for a long time might be the best bet for your prototype. Then examining what failed there would suggest improvements on the design.
All wood moves mostly across the grain, by varying degrees. You won't do well to fight it. It is predictable. Your "4x4" won't stay square and anything attached to it won't either. I'm sympathetic to hear of your replacement decision. Just make sure you don't repeat the situation. Have you heard of Bruce Hoadley's book "Understanding Wood" by Taunton Press? There's a wealth of information there. Very readable.
Hope I haven't muddied the waters. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
If you want to stick with the solid 4x4 you might want to check out MDO plywood for a mitered wrap. The MDO won't move as much as the 4x4, so, I'd make the wrap just a little larger than the solid post.
I know that you have to match certain architectural details, so this may not help you, but...
Most boxed porch columns here in central NC are nailed up hollow ones. When I did the columns for my own house (these only hold up a 4/12 roof covering an 8' porch) I did the same thing. Southern Yellow Pine 5/4 x 6s and 5/4 x 4s square edged nailed and glued (no back priming). I'm not sure the glue did much because everything shrank widthwise (just like the previous posters pointed out). Our painter caulked the gaps with adhesive caulk, painted 'em, and they swelled back up so tight the caulk squeezed out. I also had my guys (I'm a trim carp) cut the cut the base and capital trim a little big, well that's what I told them to do. Most of those miters have opened slightly to not so slightly. My house is supposed to look old, and danged if it doesn't<G>. Anyway, next time I'd have the trim really cut oversized, nail it together at the miters and only into the middle of the columns, then I'd still be prepared to recaulk. Wood moves, so does plastic, I like wood a little better.
So I'll show you mine, if you'll show me yours, LOL. 100pcs, must have a lot of panel work, MDO might be the ticket...
I will post some pics tomorrow. EliphIno!
I just finished some columns on a back porch. I used solid PT 4x4 for the post and clear cedar wrap that was oversized. The wrap and base trim sit off the ground by about 1/4" to vent (posts sit on galvanized standoffs and the wrap is open at the top.) All trim back primed, and miters joined with West epoxy and biscuits, where they fit. For the base, I cut them oversized as well, placing shims in the center of the cedar wraps. Bases were mitered with biscuits, and nailed through the shims at the center, standing off the wraps by about 1/8" each side. Cove on top of base mitered and nailed together and to the base, not to the wrap (base grain perp. to wrap.) The gap between the trim and wrap is caulked to allow the wrap to move independent of the trimwork. Samo-samo for the cap; shim, biscuits, gap and caulk.
BTW, for the base miters (or any straight run miter,) I learned a trick a while ago to help keep the miters closed (or hide them if they have parted) and that's to run a smooth, round shaft over the edges at an oblique angle, kind of like burnishing a scraper. It rounds over the miter edges slightly. Sorry, no photos.
First time I've tried it this way, so only time will tell. . .
I never met a tool I didn't like!
These are PT 4x4 posts? They'll eventually shrink and give you some airspace. As people probably mentioned, you need venting up the length of the column. I would add vents and disguise them as extra pieces of trim. Some 1/4 holes drilled upwards at an angle beneath horizontal trim pieces. Some venting is better than none.
As you know, moisture causes wood to swell. But perhaps you didn't know that wood swells primarily across the grain. Wood movement parallel to the grain is almost nonexistent -- perpendicular is the killer.
So, if the "wrap" was done with traditional 1-by's, ripped to width, these are swelling (getting wider - along a horizontal line). But I'm betting that much of the trim is mitered pieces which wrap around that wrap.
So the trim pieces have their grain running against (not with) the grain of the 1-by material.
When building anything with tight tolerances, that is a no-no.
The fix, if I've hit on the root of the problem, is to replace the 1-by material. Replace it with plywood that has been cut and ripped to size. Use the treated stuff, since this will be exposed. Then put the trim back on.
Or, you could just go buy some plastic column wraps.
Thanks for the input, I do intend to replace the columns completely and will allow for expansion this time , I guess I was really relying too much on the strength of my glue. Oh well live to learn another day and another way. Shotsy
For those that don't knowm "WindsorOne" is simply big boards made from little boards. They edge glue strips and fingerjoint lengths to make wider and longer trim boards. Comes preprimed.
Shotsy, how are the joints failing? Butt joints opening? Miters?
Are miters opening due to the actual trim piece shinking, or are the miters opening because the underlaying board they are attached to is expanding, thus making the mitered trim piece too short?
Though I've never used WinsorOne, it supposedly has a pretty good primer on it, which should help minimize seasonal wood movement. Still, if the wood is moving this much, this soon, theres a slight chance the fingerjoints might start telegraphing through the paint. Ugh.
How did you fasten the trim? nailed? Glued? Both?
Joinery? Simple butt joints? Miters? Locking miters on the wraps?
It's tough to diagnose without pictures. Also, where are you (humid Louisiana, dry Arizona), when was the work done, and when did the joints start opening up?
Don't use MDF in your repair work.
You may want to consider epoxy when you redo the work. Pretty bulletproof, works well for outdoors.
Pictures would be great for diagnosis, plus, I'd love to see the columns...the design sounds nicely detailed.
Shotsy,
Get ready for this, you might want to sit down though cause it might hurt. I build a lot of houses for discriminating owners and I have to say cost is not always the most relavant criteria when design and materials are picked out.
With that said go to your lumber yard and ask them for a product called Azec. It is plastic, can be milled and finsihed just like wood. I use marinetex 5200 caulking for joints(marine grade caulking) about 13.00-17.00 bucks a tube depending on where you buy it. I also use epoxy in certain situations too. The marinetex holds up incredibly. The plastic breaks before any joint breaks barring some gorilla isn't filling gaps!
The plastic is expensive. I have used it to do curved openings and trim around eyebrow windows because you can apply the trim in one piece, and it comes out SWEET.
A 5' x 10' 1" thick sheet is about $350 where I am, but I'm on an island. That is the extreme though. The lumber salesman told me the plastic was like 5% more than clear pine or cedar.
It is also available in typical dimensions and lengths. Up to 1" x 16" x 18' even. So it has alot of possibilities for applications. It is straight too, but can cup slighty if not stored properly. When I have time I will post some photos of a house in progress right now that I used thousands of dollars of this stuff on.
If your posts are square this will help you look REALLY good. If your internal post is not slightly smaller than the inside dimension of the exterior wrap, you will continue to have problems, as I agree with many of the other posts.
Personally don't use MDO or anything like that. Get a high quality glue, and either stay with cedar or doug fir, and if you are going that far go plastic. That windsor preprimed will expand and contract even when put up dry on a dry building; those finger joints just aren't stable for high profile trim jobs.
Cut down the posts if they are to tight, wrap the bottom of the post in vicor first; then apply vicor in vertical strips up the posts and make sure that the 4 x 4 is not directly on concrete. Shim the beam as needed, I use screws on all opposing sides whether it is circular or square to hold the beam where I need it also. Go stainless or woodex for durablity. Good luck..........happy fixin'