I am finally getting serious about buying a skid steer loader. (probably a good used one) I’ve been doing a lot of research and read all the comments from Catskinner and Frenchy & Co. the last time this topic came up a few weeks ago.
I’ve been running heavy equipment since I was a kid, but never owned or ran a skid steer.
The local dealers support Cat, John Deere, Komatsu, and Mustang
I would like to hear opinions on at least two things:
1) the type of controls…hand & foot, hand only
2) the advantages or disadvantages or preferences for a radial or vertical lift system
Anything else you want to throw in will be appreciated!
Replies
I only have a couple of comments.
I prefer both hand AND foot controls. It just seems more intuitive that way.
IMHO you can't go wrong with Cat brand equipment if you have a dealer close by. They do a good job of backing up their equipment with parts and service.
I've played with Bobcat, JD, and New Holland, and I'd snag a JD over the other two..man, it was the best.
But like Boss says, local parts / service may play a part for you..we have both local dealers for BC and JD.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Since I've sold both Cat and John Deere I think I can be pretty objective about both of them..
First the vertical lift system on the John Deere allows it to pick up much more than a radial system allows. Hydraulic power isn't the issue. Balance is and as the load goes further in front radial will tip long before a vertical lift will. The only down side is the extra grease fittings to grease.
Second the engine in the John Deere has much more torque than any of the competition..
We tested them all one day and size for size The Deere really outworked everybody else.. where everybody engine would stall out the John Deere would push right through the pile..
The steering control on the Cat was difficult for me to master. Oh I could do it but it really required attention to go straight whereas the John Deere you could concentrate on other things. Doing 2 or three thing simultaneous just was easier on the Deere than the Cat..
One other critical factor the vertical lift height on John Deere gives it greater tip height than the competition.. so those dump trucks with high sideboards won't require you to build a ramp to tip your loads into the way most of the rest of them will.
Now nothing in John Deere can't be overcome with a little ingenuity and time with the others so if the Cat is a better dealer or you just like Cat etc.. don't hesitate. The Cat is fine..
I also sold Gehl (mustang) and it's OK as well..In fact it has more power than the Cat does.. the Komatsu I'm sure has it's fans as well.
When you are dealing with the various dealers to get the best deal do not under any circumstance sign the deal the first time around.. Instead have everybody give you a quote so you can take it to your banker (even if the in-house deal is too good to pass up)
Once you've got everybodies best price use it to beat the one you really settle on into line.
Frenchy, I haven't had the opportunity to really look at these machines yet...just on the internet.
Tell me if I have this right....
The Cat has pilot controls where the left hand control runs the steering and the forward/reverse and the right hand runs the bucket??? This sounds like my Komatsu dozer.
The John Deere has foot pedals for the bucket control and the two levers control the forward/reverse and the steering. How do you steer the J.D.? Do you just push one lever more than the other? Why does the top of the lever have a hinge on it? It looks like it tilts inward. What does that do?
How about ease of entry & exit on these machines?
I see some of them have high output hydraulics for attachments. Is that necessary only for certain attachments?
John Deere will sell you either foot controls (which I like) or hand controls. Yes that is how most skid steers built to date steer.. Bob Cat which is still the giant in the industry and has the most users has the majority of experiance
Entry or exit for every skid steer is over the bucket or attachment. Awkward at best!
Unless you know for sure that you won't ever use anything other than the bucket you should get the high output option. Rental attachments make your machine much more versital and you don't need to make the capitol investment up front.
Thanks Frenchy & others! If Catskinner or anyone else comes along, I'd like to hear from all of you.
i just got a 09 JD CT 332 with electrohydraulic controls. Couldn't be happier with it. I demoed a previous version with hand and foot controls which |I liked but the eh controls are much more precise. It's practically impossible to stall when pushing into a pile. I wouldn't worry top much about high flow hydraulics unless you are going to use a trencher.
I have looked at that machine. It would be my first choice if I buy a new one!
I'm sorry a trencher is far from the only attachment that needs the high flow hydraulic.
off the top of my head,
a back hoe attachment , a post hole digger, a Brush hog, a mower, a jack Hammer, a cultivator, a tamper, a plate compactor, shoot I'll bet I've missed 1/2 dozen landscape attachments and another dozen construction attachments..
Unless you are 100% sure you will never need the high floow option it's money extremely well spent.. retrofitting it will cost 10 times what buying it on the machine does.. and will improve the resale marketablity of the machine..
Frenchy.....As long as you're still around, I've got another question for you. I found a nice looking Mustang 2070 almost down the street.
I'm going to check it out tomorrow.
What can you tell me about that particular machine? 1700 hrs 1999 model
I've a source who used to be the factory rep for Mustang back when they were made in Minnesota (like your machine was) I'll ask him.. let me say in general Mustang had a decent reputation but an extremely limited market. Parts availability might become an issue.. on a near 10 year old machine..
Is this a hobby or interest rather than a serious work machine? Then if the price is right and the machine in decent condition you can consider it..
If however you intend to work this machine you are looking at the wrong machine..
At that age and with those hours maintenance will be a regular and steady part of life.. These are machines which by their very nature tend to be used beyond their capability.. digging and shoving their way until they cannot do more, then backing up and trying again with a slightly different tactic is simply the norm.
Push anything to it's failure mode countless times and the maintenance number tends to soar. The hard thing is that a real warthog can be painted over to look like a prize. Do not under any circumstances buy a machine which has been repainted and new tires put on recently..
That hides too many sins.. they majority of which you cannot determine by a visual examination..
The key ingredient, the drive systems and chains are well hidden behind sheetmetal.
Under no circumstances would I ever buy any used piece of equipment without an engine oil analysis done by a well respected laboratory..
trival seeming issues such as minor leaks etc. has a way of quickly becoming major expensive deals.
Frenchy,
I really appreciate your input on this stuff. You've got experience that I couldn't find anywhere around here and I know what you mean about how these things are usually used. I'll check carefully!
Did you ever sell any Deere 325s? I haven't seen many of these for sale, but I did come across one I would consider if it's not a complete dud out of the factory.
My excavating buddy tells me I'll be sorry if I don't buy a rubber tracked machine.
I'll be using it from time to time on the job, not pounding it every day.
I am also noticing that high flow machines are very hard to find.
Still studying and appreciate everyone's opinions!
I second the need for rubber tracks..
except......
rubber tracked machines are far more veristile and damage finished yards etc less than tired machines do.. In addition they can work where the ground is much worse without getting stuck.
however the rubber tracks are more expensive than recapping tires.. they also wear extremely quickly on pavement or concrete.. (or any abrasive surface)
Yes I sold the 325 and the early ones are more trouble prone than the newer ones..
what year are you considering?
More important what sort of work do you envision doing with this machine? How will you use it on the job?
It's a 2006....325 I'm trying to find out what it was used for previously.
Most of the time, I will be moving fill (sand) around homes and garages to level out floor areas before pouring concrete.
I would also use it with forks to haul building materials around the site.
And lastly, I would really like to have a grapple to move logs and brush when we clear sites.
I've got lots of bigger equipment, but something small like this would come in handy for places that are hard to access....and they seem to be getting more common!!
The only advantage of the tracked machines to me, is that I could work in places the wheeled version couldn't. I'm really not worried too much about tearing up the ground.
One of these machine comes with steel tracks ( the type that go over the wheels)
Thanks again!
The steel tracks are available for any skid steer and a perfect option in your case.. Look at the local dealer for slightly used steel track) The grapple will require the high flow option. You might also consider the purchase or rent of a jack hammer, post hole auger, and a brush hog.
(all of which require high flow options)..
When finding the previous user also try to find out why it's available.. If just a switch to upgrade or a loss of business that's a great time if the price is right and the condition worthy.. If it's a repossession have a qualified mechanic make you a list of delayed maintenance that will be required.. (plus do a oil analyses) Something that any used machinery needs..
High flow is not needed nor reccommended on any of the accessories you mentioned especially a jackhammer unless you want to destroy it. The only attachments that use highflow are brush hogs, mulchers, and road grinders. I
Would hi-flow damage a post hole digger on a skid steer?
The skid steer shredder/mower looks like it would be really cool. Looks like you could get up under trees, fences, etc without having to back up like you do on a tractor sometimes.
Every car, truck and tractor in America should run on natural gas- it's the future.
You should not use high flow on a post hammer, they are the same as jackhammers.
Are you sure about that?? I think you are confusing high flow with high pressure. Big difference !
Most high flow systems are just that...they flow more GPM than a standard system.
I can't see how a higher flow of oil at the same pressure as a standard system will hurt anything.
But I can see how an inadequate flow of oil would prevent an attachment from working properly.
Many attachments are made specifically for standard or high flow systems.
Edited 12/29/2008 10:21 pm ET by BoJangles
The higher flow results in higher rpms at the equipment therefore higher temperatures along with greater fuel consumption. Each attachment is rated for a specific range of GPM's and must be matched to the output of the machine. Very few attachments require High Flow.
For example, I rented a Harley Rake for my Case 60XT, the rake is rated at max 21GPM. The skid is rated at 23GPM, I could rake for about 45min before the machine overheated. FYI: Case typically has a higher Aux Hyd Output than other machines.
I have run most brands of skids and prefer CASE, CAT, NEW HOLLAND, and newer DEERE. CAT's are typically overpriced.
Hand/Foot controls are fine if you are used to them but allow far less precision than Hand controls especially in rough environments along with less operator fatigue. CASE and CAT both only have hand control options but they have different patterns of operation.
What if you happen to own a high flow machine? Surely there must be a way to decrease the flow so that you can use common tools.
Thanks for the info.
I own 2 high flow Bobcats and the high flow is switchable. Of the 10-12 different attachments I have, I only use high flow on the trencher. Cold planers, some brush cutters, and stump grinders are the only 2 attachments I know that REQUIRE high flow. I am sure that there are others, but most attachments are designed for low flow machines. Even my brushcutter is a low flow attachment. My smaller Bobcat t190 high flow is 2 gpm more than the low flow of my S250. You have to be careful and know the flow requirements of an attachment before you shoot the extra juice to it. I bought the high flow for versatility but honestly use it very little. I have multiple buckets, a grapple, forks, brush cutter, log splitter, augers, blade, lifting boom, sweeper, Harley rake, and probably a couple I forgot. Probably the most important attachment is a tooth buket or bar. I went years without it and it was the stupidest mistake I ever made. A 68" tooth busket on a tracked skidsteer is almost as useful as a backhoe for shallow depths. A skidsteer is the most versatile machine I own. And as far as hand controls go, you will be comfortable with whatever you learn with or get used to.
Here is a picture that I took last spring. I was looking for a field tile and got stuck. The backhoe was there to pull me out.
View ImageJohn
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
“You can either wait for the storm to pass, or you can learn to dance in the rain.”
"I'll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what happened inside this Oval Office."—Washington, D.C., May 12, 2008
Is that your T190 down in that hole?? You look like a dog that has chased a rabbit down a hole and won't give up until he gets it.
I saw a guy with a T190 move an amazing amount of dirt up and down a steep hill last summer. No other machine we had on the site could get in and out of there.
After reading your post, I'm so **** jealous that I'm ready to go out and spend more than I should for one of these machines and accessories!
I just came back from trying out several machines. I have convinced myself that I would not be satisfied with anything but pilot controls. To me, it is very easy to run because I have other equipment that uses the same type of control system.
The machines with the manual controls were clunky and too slow for my liking. I have not tried a Bobcat yet.
There are different valve arrangements when purchasing an attachment to size it for your particular machine. Any intermittent attachments (grapple, tree shear) should be fine for a variety of flow rates.
I stayed away from a tracked machine because of the additional expense in maintenance especially when navigating on pavement. Instead I bought McClaren ProTracs that are steel over the tire tracks with rubber pads on each track.
Pros: There isn't a place I can't go. Increases lift capability and stability, Removeable
Cons: Increases fuel consumption significantly (weigh about 1600 lbs)
When I bought my Deere CT332, the rep said they only special order the high flow machines and even then only rarely as few attachements really need to high flow.
I would think "High Flow" is a relative term as each manufacturer probably has different specs
I did ask whether it would be needed for a hydraulic breaker and a rock hound as they are next on my wish list and the rep said no.
One attachment I have found really useful is a 3 point hitch attahment. I use it with a 6 ft york rake and it is fantastic at both grading and raking.
I stayed away from a tracked machine because of the additional expense in maintenance especially when navigating on pavement. Instead I bought McClaren ProTracs that are steel over the tire tracks with rubber pads on each track.
I just started browsing, looking for tracks like that. You saved me a lot of work!
Got a ballpark figure for cost on those?
I paid about $3500 last summer...all tracks require an offset wheel, which gives you 4" clearance between frame and tire. I bought them from an ebay store.
So far they are extremely tuff with some minor chunking on a couple pads from some demo work.
http://www.mclarenusa.com
Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for.
Yep. That is my machine in the hole. I had dug what I needed to and the last time I went in I got hung up. I had to drive a couple of miles away to borrow that hoe from a buddy. Mine was about 20 miles away on another job at the time. If your work is 95% in the dirt or mud, I would recommend rubber tracks. Steel tracks are good but horrible on pavement or concrete. I usually get about 1000 hrs. out of a set of tracks and we run on pavement 5-10% of the time. Last set of tracks cost me $2300. I would say that tracks will increase productivity 30% and are generally more comfortable on dirt. You don't feel every bump like on a rubber tired machine. If you are looking at Cat, be careful I know that some of the early track machines had undercarriage issues. I think they got the bugs worked out. As somebody stated earlier, good dealer support is important. Bobcat has been excellent to me and they are close. Also in the 12 years or so that I have had Bobcats, I have not had any major issues. Change oil, grease, and add fuel. My t190 is an '01 with about 2200 hours on it and my S250 is an '06 with about 600 hours on it. I know that Bobcat offers pilot controls as an option. My t190 has hand/foot controls and my S250 is switchable from hand/foot to hand only. Also if you plan to change alot of attachments, the powered bobtach is worth every penny.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
“You can either wait for the storm to pass, or you can learn to dance in the rain.”
"I'll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what happened inside this Oval Office."—Washington, D.C., May 12, 2008
Thanks...good info!
The one real beef I have about Bobcat is the tiny engine they use. Nice reliable and long lasting but it stalls easily compared to the torque monster in the John Deere.. (plus the engine in Deere is made in America not Japan).
i have one old clark bobcat 40hp gas ... still cranks right up and will run all day and i got it from a junkyard 20yrs ago it was old then... a bit loose now ... not much on dig'n but it'll move piles all day long... and has aux hyd...
my 753 is not a large machine but it will work all day has the kabota diesel... i have a 909 backhoe attachment that works fine with it...
move'n dirt & sand all day it'll never stall... i run it at maybe 30% power 95% of the time
like you have said before... match the machine to the work you will be doing...
some tool you know have more than paid for themself... this is one i know has
p
I have the first year T190 and it is a little underpowered but not much. I heard the later ones with a few more ponies are much better. My S250 has way adequate power. My last concrete guy had a Deere 260 skidsteer. It was a beast but a POS in my opinion. I think it had ALOT of low quality foreign components from eastern european countries. I will argue with your assessment of the kubota engines. They have got us beat hands down on engine technology. Didn't you buy your daughter a Toyota? When I bought my last tractor (Kubota), I shopped Deere really hard and wanted to buy it because of being american made. Wrong! Maybe assembled in american of foreign components. The Kubota was more american made. Also the same size Kubota outperformed the Deere hands down. I am a firm believer in buying American when I can get an equivalent or better product even if I have to pay a little more. My wife drives an Olds and I drive a Ford.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
“You can either wait for the storm to pass, or you can learn to dance in the rain.”
"I'll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what happened inside this Oval Office."—Washington, D.C., May 12, 2008
Well Deere went through several suppliers early on trying to compete price wise with imported products used in other skid steers. However that beast of a motor is made in Iowa and shipped to their assembly plant.
Deere is serious as a heart attack about quality. They stopped rebadging New Hollands because of New Hollands lack of quality. When they were forced to quickly build their own skid steers some testing wasn't as complete as it should have been and they paid a price with the recalls and etc.. However they made improvements every year and today the Deere can stand up with others and in some areas of reliablity are ahead..
Like I said the motor in the Bobcat is nice but small. It simply doesn't have the torque rise of the John Deere and thus can't push through a pile of dirt the without stalling the way the Deere can..
As adament as I am about the Deere you'd think that I hadn't worked for Ingersol Rand.
However I only worked for Deere for 3 1/2 years compared to nearly 7 with IR.
I like Bobcat if it had the power of the Deere that's what I would buy. But having used every single skid steer out there right now I'd select John Deere..
What is flawed about IR is how frequently it's been sold.. I know of 7 times and I don't waste a lot of time studing corporate structure.. Every single time it's sold new corporate owners come in and try to lean out the company to show a quick profit and that has hurt Bobcat's market share.. at one point they had 95% of the skid steer business and today while they are still #1 they are being pushed by several. Cat and Deere the leading contenders.
Wasn't Bobcat recently bought out by a Korean Co.?
Isn't that why they are trying to get into the compact tractor market? The Korean Co. already has a compact tractor factory so the can sell them under the Bobcat name?
Every car, truck and tractor in America should run on natural gas- it's the future.
>... buy any used piece of equipment without an engine oil analysis done by a well respected laboratory.. <<<
Great point.
That's easy enough to get done.
But very rarely done.
Every car, truck and tractor in America should run on natural gas- it's the future.
The Caterpillar dealer is one great source for engine oil analyzes. Most have their own oil labs and don't care what the source of oil is..
I saw a machine at a trade show this year- a JCB I think, that had a side exit door -
the boom was on the right side, with the door on the left.Recently rented a Bobcat T190 that gave you the choise of foot or hand controls with the flip of a switch. I need something to do with my feet, thats how I wuz learnt. Nice machine, great in the mud, but not as much power as a previous rental- a Volvo 190.Steve
JCB has an extremely checked past. Frequent change of Dealers and lack of parts on all but cuurant models..
JCB is made in England with all the problems and limitation that entails.. (however a very inovative company and their equipment has agreat deal of driver comfort features.. )
Bojangles,
Have you bought any machine yet? Just wondering what you decided to go with?
Every car, truck and tractor in America should run on natural gas- it's the future.
Not yet...I'm still picking Frenchy's brain!
i've only owned newholland and bobcat... have 2 bobcats now... my newest is a 753 bigger would be nice but it works for me.... less than 300hrs in 5 years so might be hard to judge by me... i have smooth edge bucket, toothed bucket, sweeper, backhoe, and forks... also have a concrete mixer i will adapt to hyd and the bobcat use at some point...
foot & hand controls easy to master... i do have a 30gal bucket & bracket i can hang on the back and fill with water that i use alot with the forks... helps alot... zero trouble since i've owned it... it had 470hrs when i got it... got it from the dealer for 10k which i think it's still worth... I grease it alot... change the oil... and have replaced a few hyd seals... and a set of tires off ebay... with fuel I'm guess'n my total operating costs are under $4hr
i'd buy another...
p
Edited 12/27/2008 6:18 pm ET by ponytl
Man, I came really close to buying a JD CT 332 while I was looking at the JD 110TLB.
I'll probably wind up with one.......some day.
Have fun with whatever you wind up with.
Every car, truck and tractor in America should run on natural gas- it's the future.
I have a New Holland now. No complaints.
If the cab is open and the lift is radial, you'll wind up spilling more #### onto yourself.
I've run Bobcat and Cat machines some in the past few years.
One complaint about the Cat: The ones I ran had hand controls and all the bucket controls were on the right. A long day on those things really set off my right arm/shoulder problems.
What will you be using the machine for?
If the cab is open and the lift is radial, you'll wind up spilling more #### onto yourself.
Now that's something that didn't cross my mind.
I would be using it mostly for earth moving around construction sites.
Guess how I know. < G >
Wow. SEE ARE EH? PEAIs now another banned word!
Aw debris!
hmmmm, doesn't have the impact
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
I've spent a lot of time in many brands and hands down my favorite is CAT. I loved the hand controls and once you are used to them (takes no time at all) it is super easy to manuever and finese around.
If I were buying, it would be a CAT.
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
regardless of what you get, the three must-have attachments are (IMO) smooth bucket, graple (for top of bucket) and forks.
The grapple requires the auxilary hydraulics but I couldn't see buying one without the aux hook up.
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
Those are the three I would use all the time!