Have you built new or remodeled, and used a skylight as the egress window for an under-roof bedroom?
I have a design I for a house wherein two upstairs bedrooms might get this treatment. The proposed product for the opening is the Velux GPL hinged roof window in size code M08, which has a size that meets our local code.
Here is a view inside one of the rooms. The kneewall height is 62 inches, the skylight vault’s ceiling height above floor is 73 inches, and the under-roof ceiling is 97 inches.
The height-above-floor for the “sill” of the skylight, will meet our NY state code.
A birds-eye view.
To do this with dormers would add a lot of expense, and the dormers would clutter the look of the face elevation of the house.
What issues might we face, in your opinion?
Replies
If you're saying the bottom of the skylight is 67"AFF, I'd think you have a problem. Our code is no more than 44", and I've seen it called.
Then, ask Velux if it's got an egress approved opening.
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Never used one, but i'd verify with a BI/plans examiner first. An egress window provides an unobstructed opening in a panicky situation. The skylight hangs down in front, and a 45 degree swing combined with the roof depth and the walls boxing out around the opening might sway an opinion.
Just playing devil's advocate. But the manufacturer's claims that it meets code won't be the final determinant.
I see several problems.
The sill height seems higher than 44" AFF.
The size for an egress is based on clear openning, not glass size. I've not seen a skylight open clear. You only get 8-12"
An egress window is both for occupant egress and fire rescue entry. how are you going top provide the ladder access? seem like mounting a ladder permanently to that roof would clutter the look more than a dormer. Now a snow gaurd rail ...
Finally as a practical concern, when a fire fighting team approaches a burning structure, one primary concern is how and when and where to ventilate the structure. Having that skylight open takes that decision away from them and automatically vents all the heat, gasses, and smoke out right there, making it a torch inferno, not any kind of safe access or egress.
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<An egress window is both for occupant egress and fire rescue entry. how are you going top provide the ladder access? seem like mounting a ladder permanently to that roof would clutter the look more than a dormer. Now a snow gaurd rail ...>What would be the outside ladder access difference if that skylight was dormer window?Wouldn't mind the snow guards for help getting down, though<G> What's a snow guard rail?http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Re. emergency escape opening.
The codes dont require an exterior ladder and no fireman will ever climb up someone elses ladder.
A rope ladder on the inside is just a good idea for family safety. You dont need to design a home with a rope ladder either, just plain good idea.
These are devices variously called snow blocks, ice blocks, or snow rails, that are to stop or slow snow from avalanche off of steep metal or slate roofs so people below don't get hurt.the metal roof shown in his sketch is what made me think of that. I know ladders etc are not required. Most rescue is likely to be from the fire rescue people on their ladders. I am just thinking of the practical beyond what code requires. most of you know I don't work in a location where code is a concern, but I generally design to exceed code requirements whenever I can.So understanding the purpose and reasoning behind a code helps. knowing that Gene is in a mtn area and having worked on a lot of roofs, I know terrain and that roof design could conspire to make that 'egress' unit worthless as a life saver for all practical purposes
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Thanks for bringing up the dormer window thing.
My other option to get egress openings in these two upstairs bedrooms is to use dormer windows, but even if done with dormers, the occupants and their fireman rescuers will have to traverse a piece of 12-pitch roof.
Which is true for many upstairs bedrooms for which the dormered windows are the only ones large enough for egress.
You are in NC, with many homes built into hillsides, so three full floors (and even more) go full elevation for the downhill side.
Dormer or no, if you gotta do an emergency get-out from the top floor, and your only bedroom window option is one of those on that downhill side, you will want a.) a ladder, b.) a fireman, or c.) wings.
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or a balcony roof/deck the next level down.
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Double check the GPL dimensions for egress, but I belive you are correct that the GPL does meet IRC emergency escape which is likely NY standard, though I dont know.
Like the others said, 44" is typical max sill height and based on your description, your knee wall will be above that unless you tunnel into the slope for your emergency escape opening.
Buy the VELUX flashing kit for the roof window and make sure it is installed properly and I see no problems.
(client might want a rope ladder to throw out the window if they ever have to use it but geez, I should have rope ladders on my house and dont)
The geometry you see in this pic has been modified from before. I tuned things up to be precise scale and set the light's alcove a little deeper so its sill is exactly 44 inches above finished floor.
That GPL, as you saw in the specs, opens to 45 degrees, and its W, H, diag, and open area meets our code for egress. This unit has an overall size of about 30w x 55h.
As corrected now, the overhead height (at the flat ceiling return reaching out of the skylight vault) is 73-5/8". The window head height (on L in view) is at 80 inches, the top ceiling is at 97 inches, and that kneewall is at the height stated in post #1.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
That looks more gooder.now let us know how the permitting agency reacts to it.That kneewall below could have an access panel like a cab door built into it for storing the rope ladder
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The AHJ won't even give it a look.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
does that mean they will not consider approving it, or that they don't inspect for things like that?
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Ohhh.
I like the rope ladder storage idear!!!
Round these parts, because it meets the IRC it is good to go. Pennsylvania now doesn't allow the townships to make their own rules. If it meets the IRC as written (unless overwritten by the state) then it is good to go. Might require a hand holding and discussions with the local guy, and in some instances getting an ICC rep to help clarify, etc. etc. but I could get that roof window passed without a 2nd look in most of the towns around here and they have gotten pretty good and reviewing and ensuring that jobs meet the code.
Dont know where you are in NY but up around the 1000 Islands, this would likely be considered overkill. (codes are lightly interpreted in some of the locals up there)
He is a little to the east of the 1000 Islands. I suspect that his bi and plan inspector is one and the same.
The other thing is they most often rely on the Arch or Eng stamp.
Our local AHJ will issue a permit for anything at all, scratched out on napkins even, if it is under 1500 sf.
No plans review exists, nor are there any inspections.
If the project is over 1500 sf, the drawings must bear the seal of a NY architect or engineer. I am guessing this, but most of those submitted with an architect's seal probably have things reviewed like this egress situation, but a lot goes by without this kind of scrutiny, even by the architects.
The AJH is underfunded and undermanned, with one guy only to deal with one great big township, and he has completely subordinated his office to the "professionals" whose stamps and seals appear on the drawings.
My plans get reviewed and stamped by a guy at our steel fabricators, and he concerns himself with how much rebar is in the foundation, plus how the structural stuff looks where he has furnished any steel. If there is no steel in the structure, no one looks at the sizings of my beams.
Two architect-designed megacamps down the road from me have daylight bedrooms in the basements, with windowsills way above 44 inches. Go figure.
Here, if you are not going to increase the footprint of your building, you can remodel to your heart's content without the need to apply for an receive a building permit.
To cover their butts, the fully legitimate electrical contractors hire an inspector to view their work and sign off, but that is independent of the AJH. There is nothing for plumbing, mechanical, and HVAC. No licensing is done or needed by any contractors.
In the last half dozen years, we have had four major hotel and resort projects take place here, at price tags from $14 to $35 million. No inspection. As I said, there is one guy, and he is clueless, relying on the pros to "do it right."
I went to measure a kitchen job for a condo recently. Townhomes, actually, all pretty much alike, with a full-buildout plan for 36 units. As I rose the open-riser stairs to see the baths up there, I said, "whoa, that does not feel right." I felt like I was climbing the stairs in an 1867 farmhouse.
Got out my tape and measured. The staircase, all three floors of it, was done to a rise/run of 8-1/2" by 9-1/2". And this, by a local architect.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
That rise/run is pretty common around here, even on some new stuff.We are more likely to see inspections from insurance for the owners. They write riders for some things, like low railings or spaces greater than 4", and outright reject some other items like no egress and some wood stoves.but it is a #### shoot. Those insurance guys can come from anyplace or be local.....But my take is that I don't want to build something that will get somebody hurt. Even if my cont liability covered me, I would feel bad
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>> now let us know how the permitting agency reacts to it. << That's a good start - or at least here it is. Not sure if he is inspected, I'm thinking maybe not, but here just because the plans reviewers sign off on a plan and issue a permit doesn't trump what the building inspector wants or how he interprets the code. Or maybe I'm being overly analytical with your choice of words: "permitting agency".
Anyway, I think his present setup is OK...
Someplace in Europe, probably Dublin or Edinburg, I saw a prefab'ed unit that the sloped glass popped up and that kneewall then laid flat. It seemed specifically designed for emergency egress.
Regardless of what is allowed, would you want to crawl out that thing onto that roof if there were a fire?
My guess (hope) would be no.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
What is the better option? What is the difference?
If I design it as a dormer, you still gotta crawl out the window and onto the 12-pitch roof.
If the fire department is not there yet, you gotta slide down that 45 slope, dormer window or roof window. Both windows offer the same vertical opening. Both put you out onto that same roof.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
You get a lot of snow, right? Ski out.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
I didnt see the pitch roof on the gable end. Any chance running that gable out to the end of the structure? you'd gain a few square feet to boot.
How about a fire pole?:>)
Family.....They're always there when they need you.