I have installed plenty of ceramic & porcelain tile, but not much slate. I have a customer that wants to install slate tile on their bath floors and walls. (Emser Itn’l is the manfr., 12″ x 12″) My question is, should I seal the tile first, and what type of sealer; and what type of thinset should I use? Any help would be appreciated.
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Regular thinset works, you probably want to seal first so it cleans up easier. If the slate is not smooth, if it has typical slate layers, you are going to have a really hard time getting all the grout out of the crevices. And the HO is going to have a really hard time keeping the dirt out.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
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A. You should post this question, or surf their Search at
Johnbridge.com
or
http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/index.php
The site states it is for Ceramic, but it covers any type of tile installation. Best in the business.
B. I would not seal it first because you may then have issues with grout not adhering to the tile edges. If you only seal most of the tile, to stay away from the edges, there may be a surface difference of appearance when you second coat it after installation.
C. If the tile is cleft (unevenly split) thinset will get caught along the uneven parts but you just have to stay on top of it and keep wiping the tile down. The cleaner you are in most tile installations the easier it will be regardless of tile.
D. Tell the Client that there will be a lot of tile "shedding" during the first 6 months of use. This is when all the unstable fractured shards break of from traffic. This is good. The more traffic the more wear, the prettier the floor. It really brings out the character.
E. Keep refreshing your clean-water buckets, have plenty of sponges to clean the wayward thinset and always butter the back of the tiles.
F. Slate tiles do not have a consistent thickness and therefore it is impossible for each side of the tile surfaces to be on or even close to the same plane as the adjacent tiles. This is another cause for shards of tile during the first 6 mos. Just do your best to compromise all sides.
Hope this helps.
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Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
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I've done it both ways, and sealing before grouting is the way to go. I used several coats of a water-soluble sealer...can't remember the brand, maybe Thompsons.
I've tried both sealing individual tiles and sealing them after they were laid but before grouting. Sealing them after they are laid is easier. I used a small foam roller and a small pan to keep it neat, trying not to slosh excess between the slates.
I've never had the least trouble with grout falling out of the joints with sealed slates.
I'm pretty persnickety about cleaning slate, but the one part of my floor i attempted to grout before sealing still has hairlines of grout in the slate crevices, even after a much longer amount of time spent sponging and scrubbing.
And once the grout is hard, put sealer over the whole thing, a few more coats. (Water-based dried very quickly.) I did this in an entry area with constant dog traffic and it still looks shiny after a vacuuming and plain water mopping. I don't use harsh cleaners on it.
I got some Versabond Thinset from HD that failed. I redid the job with Mapei brand from Lowe's....huge improvement in workability and performance with the Mapei thinset.
Edited 9/25/2008 4:14 pm by splintergroupie
Thanks a bunch for your input, I'm sure i'll seal the tiles as you did. Also, I've also had good luck with the Mapei brand for other applications.
Most welcome.WHAT THE PUCK???
A couple of things to consider. Slate looks fine with very minimal grout lines, just enough to leave some wiggle room for the imperfect dimensions. I like to use dark gray grout, to obsure the grout lines altogether.
I'd question using slate in bathrooms because of the different thicknesses and the sharp edges. Bare feet, especially small bare feet, will be vulnerable to painful toe stubbing, etc. Taking a fall on naked flesh could cause scraps and even cuts.
If the sealer isn't maintained, particularly around the toilet, it's likely that pourous slate will absorb #### and it's odor. Edit: that's yur-in. The censorship here is childish.
There are many porcelain tiles now available which replicate slate and stone very well and don't present those problems.
Edited 9/25/2008 4:33 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I had slate in one of my bathrooms and liked it very much, even with bare body parts in contact. The sealer actually give a more 'velvety' texture to the rock. If there's so much pee splashing enough outside the bowl and not being cleaned up that it soaks the slates, no amount of sealer is going to fix the issues involved in that scenario.WHAT THE PUCK???
If there's so much pee splashing enough outside the bowl and not being cleaned up that it soaks the slates, no amount of sealer is going to fix the issues involved in that scenario.
Male children, when engaged in something serious...like a good game...are notorious for waiting until they can't wait anymore. That often means that their aim isn't very accurate...if it ever was anyway.
Cleaning up what didn't hit the bowl isn't a big concern of their's either, mainly because it runs off the toilet and falls on the floor behind it, out of sight.
The same can be said for adult males after a few beers.
American Olean makes at least two inexpensive 12X12 porcelain tiles in earth tones. My supplier offers them at a nice discount, to keep his regulars happy. Around $2/sqft the last time I bought some.
Edit: that's yur-in. The censorship here is childish.
Don't get too p i s s e d off, you just need to spell it correctly![email protected]
Carefully select your tiles, putting the more uneven on the edges of walkways, walls and other out of the way places.
The tile is sealed twice, before installation and after grouting. The first go around simply be a little careful so you don't get it down the edges or the grout won't stick.
For slate I like to apply grout with a masonry grout bag, then work it in with a margin float, keeping as much off the tile as possible. Don't grout the whole floor and then go back to wipe it off! Slate takes much more time to wipe off.
As with all natural stone, scratch coat the back of the tile. If your slate is quite dusty from factory cutting you'll have to wash off all the cutting dust up front or the thinset won't be able to stick properly even with a scratch coat.
Watch out for how square it is. Some slate is terribly uneven.
Home Depot is actually a great place to buy slate from because you can sort through extra tiles for the colors you want and return the rest. When ordering I'll get 50% extra. One of the best deals in slate there is.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
If you like the $1 slates at HD, try the $2 slates at Lowe's. The HD ones have a lot more variation in them, while the Lowe's ones are gaged. I installed the HD slated i bought as a hearth, but the Lowe's ones were much flatter on the floor. I found the Lowe's slates to be much more square, as well. The time saved in installation and less waste with the Lowe's slates is well worth the extra cost, which is relatively cheap anyway. I should have you give me a lesson with a grout bag...never got that to work for me.WHAT THE PUCK???
I should have you give me a lesson with a grout bag...never got that to work for me.
With slate, the color is typically what decides where I'll pick it up. When a client requests slate I'll take a gander at what the tile shops and box stores have. Sometimes everyeone has great looking slate and sometimes it's slim pickings. I imagine Lowes allows slate returns as well. Cheap slate is cheap for a reason! *chuckle*
I don't mind working with ungauged slate if I have the option of a high scrap rate or easy returns as with a box store. I have been asked how to fix a new floor put down by a guy who never worked with ungauged slate--he used a small knotch trowel and put them down like ceramic tiles--what a mess.
As for the grout bag, the key is to cut the opening of the bag as large as possible and still get it in the grout line, and to not fill it too full so it can be properly twisted and bent to get enough pressure to squirt out. Machine mixed grout helps, as does kneeding the bag a bit with the hand nearest the tip. When grout is moving it's pretty liquid, but once it sits--not so much.
:-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I mix my grout very stiff so i think i just got it too stiff for the bag. I kept cutting the tip larger, but it wouldn't flow no matter what. I used the same mix smooshed across the face of the slates, but i still think the grout bag might do better to really pack a joint if i got the mix just a little looser.
I don't like to high-grade the cheap slates and return the rest. It seems to me that if a person is paying a cut rate for the slates, she should take mill run. I've kept the warped and ugly ones to use as stepping stones in the garden.
I don't like to high-grade the cheap slates and return the rest.
I'm upfront with them and they are fine with it. As long as there's no deception I don't see a problem with it. There return policy is a business decision and I'm don't feel the need to second guess them. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
a little dish soap in the grout mix will help when use'n the grout bag..
:)
p
Thanks for the tip.
The box stores willl take back a tool used for just a weekend project, too, but i won't do it. I exchange broken slates - that's legit. Breaking a box of cheap slates to high-grade strikes me like buying a sack of potatoes and returning the peelings for a refund.
oh yeah... i'm not one to return much... even broken stuff... unless it's tools that they tell you to return if they ever break..
but based on my experience with importing... the norm is... the supplier will overship sometimes by as much as 20% to account for breakage and junk... on slate they have more invested in the shiping than the product... last time i checked slate on the import market was about 12cents a SF... by the container load... so not sure i'd feel too bad... here lowes will take returns on full box quanities only...
p
i lost this thread and finally found it,so i have a question to something you said "
"I have been asked how to fix a new floor put down by a guy who never worked with ungauged slate--he used a small knotch trowel and put them down like ceramic tiles--what a mess.." well i have laid quite a bit of tile ,so i would probably proceed the same way.
i'm wanting to do a 5-600sf patio in slate and just trying to learn about it,so what did this guy do that was wrong,use the small notch trowel? i'm guessing on slate you would use at least a 1/4 x3/8 notch,or do you need more than that?or do you just have to add some thinset on each pc to level it out?
also i have laid a little bit of slate,it was pretty darn flat on both sides,compared to what i'm seeing out there now.is there different grades or do you just get what you get.
as i get closer to this project i'll have lots of questions. thanks larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
You'll find slate varies all over the place. The ungauged slate might go from 5/8" to 3/8" so notch size is on the large side depending on how uneven your material is. 1/2" notches often aren't too much.
When you order make sure you see a sample to get an idea of how uneven it will be, in both color and thickness.
Best of luck!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Definitely seal first. Regular inexpensive polymer sealer is enough. I seal everything just before grouting and don't worry about getting it in the grout joints.
When you sponge off the grout, have a little nylon scrub brush along with you to loosen it from all cracks and crevices. The sponge alone is murder--the brush brings it right out.
Slate is one of the best choices for natural stone floors. It is easy to clean relative to other stones like quartzite, marble, limestone and travertine. It is not as porous as limestone, granite or marble so it will not absorb stains or odors as much. Slate varies a lot depending on what you choose. Some slates are very hard and non porous like Brazilian slate and some are soft and a resultant slurry may color your grout. I find that stains and odors are more from the grout than the stone. The grout is much more likely to get funky and be much harder to clean.
Absolutely do not use a grout bag to apply your grout. To flow through the bag the grout will have to be mixed too wet. Your grout should be mixed with a minimum of water. Grout should be mixed thoroughly and be the consistency of pie dough with a tendency to be in crumbles. If you use too much water then your grout will shrink and develop cracks that will be impossible to keep clean. To help clean up you can vacuum the crumbles before you clean with a sponge.
I've laid slate a few times. I've considered sealing first but was always concerned about getting sealer onto the edges and having a grout adhesion problem so I've always opted to seal afterwards. I never let my grout get too far ahead of my cleanup. I think this especially important when laying slate. I tried the grout bag idea and didn't like it, maybe because I like to use a stiffer mix than most guys. I float my grout in 4'x4' sections leaving a section or two to "set up" between floating and washing.