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Sloppy roofer did not install new felt, just shingled on top of old, what now?

S.Web | Posted in General Discussion on September 20, 2011 06:06am

I need some advice and / or help.  Just had my home reroofed due to hail damage. .  The guys were installing an Owens Corning arch. shingle.  The roof is about 45 sq. and the picth is  5/12.  The roof was only 4 yrs old. 

My BS detector was starting to go off when I noticed no rolls of felt on the roof but a palet on the drive.  I noticed the pile of felt was not getting any smaller.  Due to the slope of my site I can not see the rear section of the roof and thats were the crew started work first. 

As they started on the front side it looked sloppy. When they took off the shingles they left the old paper on and were very careful to not disturb it.  Thought that was weird.  I am in the back yard talking to one of the crew and he says to me, “You need to know that they are not putting on the felt paper”  Then says my boss cuts corners on EVERY job he does like leaving off felt, or not putting on a new drip edge etc. He says his garage has hundreds of rolls of paper in it.  Also says he is greedy and selfish.   My blood starts to boil cuz I was sensing things were not right.

I go to front yard and start watching.  I see one guy put a shingle on the bare roof sheeting and start nailing it in.  I was pissed.  I go up the ladder on the roof, walk over to him and ask WHY NO PAPER?  His response was “why  do you want it?”  What.  I say if you wanna get paid you do it.  I then proceed to rip into the owner of the company who is up on the roof with guys.  THis guy is 62 yrs old and been in business 30 years.

I go up to two other guys and seperately ask them if when doing the rear, was the felt put in.  One guys says MOST was, other guys says some was left off.  So 3 employees verified the entire roof was not felted, as per our contract.

So I guess I need to some advice.  Owner is not taking my calls.

1. I want the entire rear of roof redone.  Is that reasonable?

2.  Is it that big of a deal to reuse the old paper which has large rips in it from tear off.

3.  Our area requires no permit for reroofs, so should I report him?  To who?

4.  Should I file  a lawsuit if he will not fix the problem?

5.  Honestly I dont even want him on my property.  Is a $3000 discount reasonable?  The entire job was $10,100.

 

I am really disappointed.  How hard is it to put down the paper.  Prob. the easiest part of the entire job.  Any advice or comments is welcomed.  I have not paid him any yet.

 

 

 

 

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Replies

  1. DanH | Sep 20, 2011 07:03pm | #1

    If the contract called for new felt and you didn't get it you should claim the entire job against him -- have someone else tear it off and do it right.

    Obviously, don't pay him another red cent until you have it worked out.

  2. User avater
    hammer1 | Sep 20, 2011 11:59pm | #2

    Old fashioned 15# or 30# roofing felt as roofing underlayment went the way of the dinosaurs quite some time ago. Newer roofing underlayment materials are being used today. They lay down flat, don't wrinkle or rip, come in large capacity rolls, less weight and the best part is the roof can be covered with them and keep things dry if weather should hit before the shingles are installed. Any knowledgeable roofer should be up to date with methods and materials.

    The underlayment is a back up when the shingles don't do their job. With modern architectural shingles, you rarely have wind blown water getting under like you could with the old 3 tabs. Even when the old felt papers were cautiously installed, they were not totally reliable as a back up. Your next need for backup probably won't be until the new shingles are old and badly worn through. Hopefully, they will be replaced before this happens. You can relax a bit, you don't have major roof worries and even if felt was installed, it may not be much help, although, certainly better than the old. I think a disgruntled worker, that didn't know much about roofing underlayment, got you going.

    I'm not sure if you can positively say, new felt wasn't put down everywhere and it would be hard to prove. Take a good look at the contract, any arbitration clause?  If felt was specified, what was it? 15# is under $20/ roll. Your job takes about 10 rolls. Installation labor isn't much, maybe a few hours at the extreme end. You're talking $500 labor and materials. If you keep your cool, you may have the opportunity to negotiate a little discount. If you go to war, you are in for a long, hard, expensive, time consuming fight, that you may lose. Bet the roofer has a thousand satisfied, supporting customers for every one that isn't, think about it.

    1. DanH | Sep 21, 2011 07:38am | #4

      The primary purpose of felt, aside from serving as a temporary cover before the shingles are on, is to serve as a "slip sheet" so that the shingles and decking can move somewhat independently.  This is why most shingle brands require it.

  3. DaveRicheson | Sep 21, 2011 06:09am | #3

    Read the package. The requirements for shingle warrenty are written on every bundle wrapper. Felt paper or underlayment are required by most for the warrenty. A few bare spots under the shingles is enough to void the warrenty.

    I don't care how many satisfied customers he has. You got a $10,000.+ job  with no manufactures warrenty. Pretty simple to me. I take him to court, win, and have hime pay all associated legal cost, as well as replacement by another contractor.

    Discount? Heck no, you still have no warrenty, and any shigle failure is on you. Owens Corning will not honor anything. It is hard enough to get anyone to honor a legitimate clai and impossible to when someone knowing installs a product wrong.

    1. S.Web | Sep 21, 2011 12:33pm | #5

      OK, I just got out the ladder and did some inspection.  I looked at 10  diff. spots under the shingles at the drip edge and found 6 areas where it was just bare sheeting.  

      BTW, it must of been 3 disgruntled works, cuz 3 admitted to not entire papering the rear half of the roof.

      Contract states "Entire roof covered in #30  felt".   I paid extra for the 30.

      No arbitration clause on contract.  Plus, they charged for 94 feet of shingle over ridge vent ventilation, actual I measured was 67 feet.  Plus new pipe boots were not installed, I can see the old nail holes in them.  This guy is looking more and more like a real DB.

      1. S.Web | Sep 21, 2011 12:42pm | #6

        It gets better, the reason only 67 feet of ridge vent was intalled is cuz the missed installing it on the ridge over the garage.

        Also, after the started course is put on, isnt the first level of shingle on top of starter staggered the joint, they are not in quite a few areas.  AND they did not re-nail the J channel holding the vinyl siding in place after they pulled aprart to install step flashing. Totally lazy a$$ job. 

      2. DanH | Sep 22, 2011 07:50am | #11

        You've got the guy dead to rights.  Don't pay him one red cent.  Have your lawyer send him a letter to that effect, then hire someone else to tear it off and do it right.  (Unfortunately you''ll probably have to pay more to the second guy.)

        (When we reroofed last, I went out to check on things after most of the roof was done.  I found the guys tearing their new shingles off the garage, whiich had apparently been about half done.  I asked what was going on and all they said was it wasn't right and they were redoing it.  They seemed a bit embarrassed so I didn't probe further, but I think they got the courses crooked or some such.  They ate the expense of the additional shingles & felt.  All without my having to say a word.  The outfit is KW Billman in Rochester MN, and I recommend them.)

    2. DaveRicheson | Sep 21, 2011 03:29pm | #7

      Homework.

      I just had 54 squares installed on a new roof. I had 6 different roofing contractor come out and bid the work and a couple of "ggod ole boys " also came by and wanted to do the job for me. The GOB's I sent away with one question; insurance? Four of the six contractors either twitched my BS meter or bounced it off the stops.

      I used the mid range bid and three guys hand nailed the shingles in three days. I was up there every day after they quite checking thier work. The young men did an excellent job.

      I'm old enough and been in the trades long enough to not be bashfull about telling another tradesman he is full of horse pucky. Nor am I afraid to fire a sub early into a job. I tell them all up front that my first two requirements they must meet to work for me is (A) honesty and (B) high quality workmanship. Fail on either of those two and your fired. It is funny to see the number of "no bids" I don't get after that intial meeting.

      1. S.Web | Sep 21, 2011 09:13pm | #10

        Nice approach

        I like that up front this is what I demand from you attitude.  I am going to adopt some of that.

    3. S.Web | Sep 22, 2011 12:06pm | #12

      Thanks for your comments Dave.  I just got off the phone with Owens Corning and the rep. told me lack of paper will not void their warranty.  She stated the purpose of felt to help the roof breathe. 

      If you ask 3 people what the felt is for you will prob. get 3 diff. answers but to help the roof breathe, that sounds kooky.  The 3 reasons for felt most stated is slip sheet, secondary waterproof or keeps shingles from dring out so they dont wear out prematurely. 

      Do you have any experience with O.C. and their warranty practices?  Because warranty is a big part of my negotiations.

      1. User avater
        xxPaulCPxx | Sep 22, 2011 01:29pm | #13

        I would ask for that statement in writing!

        I just looked at the O.C. Duration shingle warranty, and it had the text  "Some examples of conditions not covered by this warranty include:... Improper or faulty installation of your shingles—installation must be in accordance with our written installation instructions and comply with local building codes."

        http://roofing.owenscorning.com/docs/warranty/LifetimeWarranty.pdf

        Going to the "Written Installation Instructions" for the shingles, we see in item #2 it calling for underlayment, and a different underlayment setup for low slope.

        http://roofing.owenscorning.com/docs/installationinstructions/duration_install.pdf

  4. seeyou | Sep 21, 2011 06:48pm | #8

    Sounds like storm chaser tactics

    Was this a  local roofer?

    1. S.Web | Sep 21, 2011 09:10pm | #9

      Sort of local. The house is located on lake out in the middle of corn fields in  small town midwest USA.   The roofer was from one of the larger towns about 30 miles away.

  5. john_carroll | Sep 23, 2011 10:16am | #14

    Function of roofing felt

    In the May, 2002 issue of the Journal of Light Construction, representatives from three shingle manufacturers were interviewed about a variety of issues concerning asphalt shingle roofs. Here is one of the questions asked and the answer (I've added bold text for emphasis):

    Q: Is felt underlayment really necessary?

    A: Felt serves several functions: Its primary job is to keep the roof deck dry before the shingles go on, but it also provides added protection from wind-driven rain or in the event of wind damage to the shingles years later. While felt is far from a perfect weather barrier--each shingle makes at least four nail holes in it--it can substantially reduce interior damage when water gets past the shingles. Finally, felt provides increased fire resistance.

    My comments:

    --There's no mention of it being used as a slip sheet. Nor is there anything said about felt helping the roof "breathe", whatever that's supposed to mean.

    --The fire resistance issue does not apply to most residential construction. The felt very slightly increases the burn time of the roof assembly. However, the felt, which is made of asphalt and paper, also provides added fuel for the fire. Most single-family homes don't require a fire-rated roof assembly but if you live where fire is a significant threat, you should probably consider another type of roof.

    --Notice what is given as the primary function of felt: namely, to keep the deck dry until the roof is installed. My father, who was a sales rep for several shingle manufacturers in th 1950s and 1960s, always insisted that this was the true reason for felt.

    --Also, notice how the second part of the answer is phrased. He uses hedging words--"provides added protection" and "can sustantially reduce". There's nothing definite there because, the fact is, nobody knows how much the felt protects the house from wind-driven rain or in the event that the shingles blow off.

    --I believe felt is an insignificant part of the roof assembly. As the manufacturers' reps stated, there are four nails driven through each shingle. Each of these nails, amounting to several thousand on most roofs, punctures the felt and provides a path for water to enter the house. If rainwater gets past the shingles, where does it go? If it's trapped between the shingle layer and the felt, it's pulled down by gravity through every imperfection is the felt--of which there are thousands. In my experience, felt does no discernible good when the roof fails. Just yesterday I was working on rotten siding with felt underlayment. The felt did little or nothing to prevent the sheathing and frame behind it from serious rot. There was extensive moisture and mildew on both sides of this secondary "barrier". I've seen this countless times on roofs and walls.

    --The manufacturers cite wind as a reason to use felt. In decades of replacing and repairing roofs, I've never once seen a roof leak beacuse of rain being blown under the shingles. I live in a moderately high wind area (Central NC) and in the past I've lived along the Atlantic Coast. If I ever concluded that wind-blown rain was causing leaks, I wouldn't rely on felt to solve the problem, I'd use an elastomeric underlayment (Ice and Snow Shield or equivalent). Roofs almost always leak because of insufficient pitch, poor flashing details, sloppy work in valleys, ice dams or because the roof is worn out. Aside from these problems, the only times I've encountered leaks in the field of the shingles was because of gross ineptitude on the part of the roof installer (i.e., nail holes, courses not offset, nails not driven in completely, etc.). 

    --The manufacturers also cite the possible protective value of felt when wind blows shingles off. However, if there's enough wind to blow the shingles off there's usually enough to blow the felt off too. The synthetic underlayments, installed with cap nails, seem to resist wind much better than felt. But keep in mind, it really takes a lot of wind to blow a properly-installed shingle roof off. I've seen a film clip of a roof assembly in a hurricane. Within seconds of the shingles blowing off, the entire roof structure took flight.

    --If I was the original poster, I'd be more concerned about the lack of offset in the first course and the re-use of pipe flanges than about the felt. If his roof fails, it is far more likely that the problems are in the details of the finished roof--not in the underlayment.

    1. S.Web | Sep 23, 2011 11:29am | #15

      Thank you for detailed information and explaination.  Very informative.  In the past week I have researched more about roofing than I thought I would ever need. 

      In the end, I believe my biggest worry is if they cannot get the basics right  like installing the felt correctly, what other mistakes have they made.  Like the ones you have mentioned valleys done right, shingles nailed property, step flashings right etc.

      I am not in the construction trades but in my life experiences I have learned where there is smoke, there could be fire.  Or to quote my dad "Sh...t runs down hill".

      I have  finally had a conversation with the owner, he is coming out ot fix all the problems I have found, and I am not a expert on roofing, inspect the roof with me, pull up some shingles if I want to confirm the felt was done as the contract states, and to make it right. 

      The one thought that sticks in my mind is, what about all the people that have no idea how a roof should be installed? what if this happened to them.  They would have not idea that things were not done right and would not even know.  Maybe ignorance is bliss.   

      1. john_carroll | Sep 24, 2011 02:31pm | #17

        What is "done right"

        Web,

        You wrote:

        "The one thought that sticks in my mind is, what about all the people that have no idea how a roof should be installed? what if this happened to them. They would have not idea that things were not done right and would not even know. Maybe ignorance is bliss."

        I would bet that your roofer truly believes that your roof is done right. He has cut corners and he has not met the terms of your contract but the chances are good that the roof he installed will perform as well as a roof installed by me. I would have installed new felt; I would have struck lines and run arrow-straight courses; I would have installed new pipe flanges. You would, no doubt, feel much better about my roof than his. But the rain that falls on your roof doesn't know whether the courses are straight or wavy as it follows the dictates of gravity and flows down and off the eaves of the roof.

        The thing is, a fairly large segment of the guys who build and repair houses for a living think that, if something works, then that is good enough. They have no interest in improving upon the most basic standards of workmanship and, in fact, are uncomfortable with craftsmanship, which they find wasteful.

        Your roofer would appear to be focused on what works. He's concluded, correctly in my opinion, that felt has very little impact on the performance of the roof. He's also found that an old, beat-up pipe flange works just as well as a new one. However, installing felt and new pipe flanges things are specified in the contract he signed. And, unfortunately for him, you climbed up on the roof and found out that he was not fulfilling the terms or your agreement.

        I wouldn't go to court over his dishonesty and I wouldn't make him tear off the shingles to install underlayment. I'd make him fix the starter course and replace the flanges with new ones and I'd withhold $1000 for his failure to install felt. I'd also make him sign a five-year warranty against leaks. 

        1. [email protected] | Sep 27, 2011 03:52pm | #20

          The issue

          Isn't whether he got a fair price for what the guy did. 

          The guy did not do what he agreed to do, for the price he proposed. 

          Contracts and bidding are to keep the playing feild level.  If he lets him slide, it isn't morally fair to the other two bidders, who were within $400 dollars of his bid.  They bid it to comply with the spec, and make whatever profit they were including in thier proposals.  He stole the job knowing that he wasn't going to comply with the specifications and therefore could underbid his competition.  Simply stated:  He stole the just profits from an honest bidder.   

          If I were hired as a project manager for this owner, I would be adament that the roofer constructs what he bid.  Not what he thought he could slide by with. 

          1. john_carroll | Sep 27, 2011 06:36pm | #21

            Who said he got a fair price? I don't even like the term "fair price", so it wasn't me. Whenever someone asks me what a fair price is for any given job, I tell that person that a "fair price" is a price that the owner and the contractor agree on. Once they agree on a price, the contractor should do the work and the owner should pay the agreed-upon sum. Last year, I agreed to do a job and it took longer than I thought it would. The owner knew I was taking a beating and offered to pay me more for the work but I flatly rejected the offer because I had a agreed to do it for a set amount. To me, a man's word is his bond and it is dishonorable to not to abide by an agreement.

            In this case, the roofing contractor was a shameless liar and he got caught. I suggested that the homeowner respond by paying less than the agreed-upon sum. You have another solution; you would force the roofer to tear off the shingles, install felt then reinstall the shingles. You haven't explained how you would compel the roofer to do this. And, should you be able to do this, do think the homeowner would actually end up with a better roof? Others have stated that the owner should haul the guy into court. That's easy enough to say if you don't have to meet with a lawyer, pay the lawyer, take time off from work to go to court and so on.

          2. [email protected] | Sep 27, 2011 07:09pm | #22

            sorry

            I meant to reply to Ron2984.

          3. DanH | Sep 27, 2011 09:21pm | #23

            Since apparently the roofer hasn't been paid yet, the other option is to use the money to pay someone else to tear it off and do it right.

          4. john_carroll | Sep 28, 2011 12:18am | #24

            Sounds good and oh-so-gratifying. Let's kick as and take names. However, there are a couple of problems with your simple solution. First of all, if the homeowner doesn't pay the original roofer, he's not going to have enough money to pay another roofer to come in and tear off the shingles and then put on a new roof. Tearing off a roof and hauling the debris away costs more than putting one on. The labor costs for the second roof, therefore, would be more than double than those of the first roof.

            Secondly, the homeowner might get sued by the original roofer. His lawyer might argue that this "hardworking 62-yr.-old roofer, who has worked all his life made a mistake. And before he could fix it, this guy brought in another roofer who ripped off a basically sound roof with minor, reparable problems." I've been involved (as an expert witness) in a case where my customer was clearly right and had strong, well-worded provisions in his contract. But he lost because he didn't give the other party ample opportunity to correct the error. It might feel good, but acting precipitously like you suggest can come back and bite you.

            Finally, what's the point? At this point, the roof is a done deal and the manufacturer has assured the owner that his warrantee is not affected by the underlayment. The owner has a right to be pissed at the roofer and the roofer should pay for his breach of contract and fix any problems in the new roof. But tearing off 45 squares of new shingles and throwing them in the landfill would be extremely wasteful and place an unnecessary burden on the landfill. And there's no guarantee that a second roof with new felt would perform any better than the one he has. Felt has little, if any, impact on the performance of a shingle roof.

          5. DanH | Sep 28, 2011 06:56am | #25

            First of all, if the homeowner doesn't pay the original roofer, he's not going to have enough money to pay another roofer to come in and tear off the shingles and then put on a new roof. Tearing off a roof and hauling the debris away costs more than putting one on.

            Ah, but the original job was (I assume) a tear-off as well.  Should be a similar price (though I suspect tearing off a new roof is maybe 5% more difficult).

            Yep, the HO might get sued.  But I'd maintain that this was the starting point for bargaining with the bad roofer.  It's not an unreasonable position to take.

          6. john_carroll | Sep 28, 2011 03:48pm | #26

            You're right; I was thinking of a new roof as opposed to a tear-off. The first roof probably cost as much as a second one would. If the homeowner made a down payment or paid any draws, however, he wouldn't have the money to do what you suggested. The more money he has withheld, of course, the stronger his bargaining position.

            The roof is an accomplished fact. I've counseled Web to work with the roofer and get the most important items fixed and get a price reduction agreement. You and some other posters keep urging Web to go to war with his roofer. But you're not doing the fighting and you're not funding the war.

            This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us, including half-assed roofers, to live in. ;) 

  6. Ron2984 | Sep 24, 2011 06:21am | #16

    Please don't take offense to this but I believe you got what you deserved. You got 45 squares of shingles replaced for $ 10,100. which works out to $ 2.24 per square foot. The going rate in Mass is approx. $ 3.25 a sq. ft which by the way is about 40% cheaper (factoring in the increase in material cost over the last 5 years) than it was 5 years ago. Roofers IMHO are working for an unsustainable price. Again, don't take offense but you should be willing to pay a fair amount in return for a workmanlike job.

    Just my .02

    1. DaveRicheson | Sep 25, 2011 08:24am | #18

      Cost of labor varies all over the country. By your labor rates I got more than a sweetheart deal. I just had 54 squares  installed for under $8K, but they were not archy shingles.

      I paid $45/ square labor and $4/ft for step flashing on a 5/12 pitch roof, and that is the going rate around here, unless I had used undocumented labor. Then it gets cheaper, but the risk is higher in both work quality and liability.

      Regardless of what the OP paid, he got a less than the contract specified job. That old saw of " you didn't pay me enough to get a good job" is BS. The contractor specified what he was going to do and then failed to do it. Both parties knew the cost of the project  when the contract was signed, but one decided he could make out better if he cut corners. That is breach of contract in most civil courts in this country.

      As my Dad use to say "if you tell a man you will work for  fifty cents and hour, that is what you do and don't cry about it if you think you are working to hard,...there aint no such thing. If the man says he will pay you $xx/per hour and doesn't deliver on it,... he is a theif and liar."

    2. S.Web | Sep 27, 2011 10:37am | #19

      I am not taking it personal but to say I got what I deserved is just retarded thoght process on  your part.  I didnt put a gun to his head and say "do the job for $10k or I will send Guido over  to your house and break your legs". 

      I got three bids, all were within $400 and I chose the wrong the guy.  If he over promises and under delivers I dont see how I got  what I deserved.  If he cant do the work for what that contract states than he should of bid more more,  This was an insurance job and he knew it, so did the other two.  He also knows how the ins. co. calculates payment. ( which is more generous than what he actually charged)   This house is in Hooterville mid west, right in the middle of 100,000 acres of corn.  People work for less here than an actual big city.  I paid the going rate. 

       I  am waiting for him to come out to fix the starter course, install ridge vent, replace pipe boots, re install siding correctly that he failed to put back up so he could install step flashing. And hit him up for a  meaningful discount.

      I would love to take him  to court and turn this into a huuuuge pissing contest but at the end  of the day I dont think the roof integrity is severly compromised.  Nor do I have the time and or energy to fight this out.  I will report this to the BBB, post on every review web site I can find about my experience, put up flyers in the neighborhood about this clown and hopefully put a little hurt back on him.

      I agree with the above poster that in his mind he did a great job.  There is a lot of contractors out there that have done sub par work for so long and cut cornerns for so long that they truely begin to think their work is appropriate and correct.  I think thats very sad.

  7. john_carroll | Sep 28, 2011 08:17pm | #27

    The hypothetical case you described is ludicrous on two counts. First of all, the idea that a correctly-installed shingle roof applied on a 4-in-12 or steeper pitch will suddenly start leaking 7 years after it is installed because of the underlayment is ridiculous. If the roof leaks in that time frame, the odds are overwhelming that the shingles and the underlayment have nothing to do with it. Most leaks are caused by poorly-executed flashing details, which, in fact, are not the shingle manufacturer's responsibility.

    Secondly, how is the warrantee inspector going to determine that the felt on the roof was not installed with the new roof. The fact is, he wouldn't be able to tell whether or not the felt was left over from the old roof. And he probably wouldn't care.

    The warrantees are all about color consistency, resistance to wind and, in rare cases, premature wear of the shingles. If shingles blow off the roof, the inspector will check weather records to make sure the wind didn't exceed the maximum wind load in the warrantee. Then he'd go up on the roof to make sure it was nailed off adequately. He's not going to do DNA on the felt.

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