Replies

1. 
   Clewless1 | May 15, 2009 08:09am | #1

   Start with conservation. Switch to gas stove. Better lighting products ... fixtures, lamps, and controls.

   Then cooling system type ... ground source heat pump? Maybe. Depends on site conditions.

   It's all site dependent. You got wind? use it. You got sun ... great for domestic water heating. PV fine [albeit expensive] for your climate.

   No easy fix all answer.

2. 
   DaveRicheson | May 15, 2009 12:54pm | #2

   Are wanting a back up generator for the whole house or just crtical need circuites?

   Makes a differance in calculating the demand load you expect the generator to supply.

1. 
   BilljustBill | May 15, 2009 01:28pm | #4

   Thanks to you, Dave, and Dude.

   Then I'm looking for a backup generator between 5,000kw-10,000kw steady output.  The smallest wouldn't power the deep well

     I know they come in weather resistant cases, but I'd not considered its own small but well ventilated building.

      Which brands, which engines, and which types of generators have the best bang for the buck?  ;>)

     Thanks for the help,

     Bill

1. 
   DanH | May 16, 2009 05:19am | #9

   My recollection from a long time back is that one criterion for smaller generators is the RPM of the motor. Some must run at 3600 RPM to provide 60Hz power, while others have a gearbox and run around 2000 RPM. You want the lower RPM (and more expensive) unit if you're looking for long run times -- running for days vs hours.I don't know where the break point is for larger generators (which would always have a gearbox) where this is no longer a concern.And of course there are the newer units that generate DC (well, probably actually unregulated AC, rectified) and then use an inverter to generate the 60Hz AC. I think these are only the smallest units, though.
   The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

1. 
   BillHartmann | May 16, 2009 09:26pm | #10

   There are engines that naturally run that slow and much slower. No need for gears.I know that some industrial diesels do. Ship propulsion engines are very slow. But that is much larger than we are talking about.And there are natural gas and gasoline engines that run very slow.Don't every remember running one, but do you remember any of the large engines in the ME lab at Speed?Here is some info on Listers. That is what the OP mentioned.http://www.listerdiesels.com/http://www.listeroid.com/generators.htmlhttp://www.cybernet1.com/mcquaid/GenSets.htmhttp://tinyurl.com/qf6epz .
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

1. 
   DanH | May 16, 2009 11:52pm | #12

   You missed my point. The cheap, gearless units run at 3600 RPM, because you need that speed to generate 60Hz out of a simple generator. The better (more durable) units run slower, requiring a gearbox.Was rarely over in the ME lab, and that was a looooong time ago anyway.
   The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

2. 
   Snort | May 17, 2009 12:24am | #13

   We just did a house with a 2k PV w/battery backup, and put in a soft start Grunfos pump in a 385' well... works great, and is supposed to last...nothing for you on the generator<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com

   Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill

   I would set him in chains at the top of the hill

   Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille

   He could die happily ever after"

3. 
   dude | May 15, 2009 12:55pm | #3

   depends , how much money you got to work with

   do you want whole house or real necessities

   how cold do you get in the winter

   what fuels do you have available locally if power goes out

   generators are so common around here they are wrote into the purchase offer on houses if they are already on site i have noticed

   nearly all the ones i have installed are less than whole house and a site specific set of instructions are posted at the power panel in each case

   i only slipped up once when i dident tell the owner in writing not to close the door to the generator room and he did  causing the 4 cyl diesel whole house generator to overheat & ruin the motor $ 10,000 shot , lifes a bitch sometimes

4. 
   BillHartmann | May 15, 2009 04:01pm | #5

   "I've seen slow two cylinder "Lister" engines with perm. magnet generators and Propane powered self-contained home systems. "

   I am not familar with those, but I suspect that those are where power is not available and they are designed to run 24x7. Might be OK, but overkill. And they might not have the automatic starting and switch over that you want.

   No personal experience, but I have heard that Generac is good basic moderated priced unit. And Kolher is a better premium brand.

   .
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
5. 
   frenchy | May 15, 2009 04:16pm | #6

   Bill

     How clever and ambitious are you? 

    There are a lot of barely used generators out there that the phone company and hospitals etc. replace because of age.. Bigger than your specs but then capable of running the whole house just like you are on the grid..

    You can pick those up for near scrap prices.. many are diesel which is a cheap fuel to use for constant use.  Some are natural gas..  More expensive and more maintinace and wear involved..

    Diesel has the advantage of being run on cooking oil which makes the fuel costs near free. (plus it tends to smell like popcorn when running) 

    

6. 
   levelone | May 16, 2009 01:43am | #7

   As for brands, in a word--Honda.  If sized for your needs, you'll be happy.

1. 
   RobWes | May 16, 2009 02:22am | #8

   Honda is good if you're there to babysit it. It burns gas but I understand there is an aftermarket kit for LP.

   Kohler is the best for stand alone, auto start, and you are not there to drag it out and make it run or the little woman is not willing to do so. Mine's a LP but NG is the same set. It's all in the funds to put them in place. Diesel set? CAT or Kohler

   I have both and have been VERY happy.

7. 
   renosteinke | May 16, 2009 10:38pm | #11

   It hs been at least a week since anyone asked about generators, so I suppose that it's time to repeat the points I've made so often in the past.

   First of all, IMO, selecting and sizing a generator is something that calls for an experienced electrical contractor, working together with the generator dealer. It is NOT a diy-type of job, nor is it suitable to 'economise' by purchasing either used or cheap equipment.

   More importantly, the generator itself is the least important part of the job.

   "Sizing" the generator is important; this is one area where 'bigger' is NOT better. The generator should be no larger than -at most- 20% over the load you're actually powering. Generators do not like to be under-used.

   Then there is the maintenance / exercising schedule. You simply must regularly run the generator under full load. This is accomplished either by switching your house over to the generator on a regular basis, or by using a 'load bank' to create a load.

   The transfer switch is the 'brains' of the operation. Quite often, it will cost as much as a new generator. This is what switches you over to generator power - without ever posing a risk that you will be either endangering power company linesmen, pr that your little generator will be fighting the power company generator. Electrical code minutia aside, I ALWAYS use a switch that also switches the neutral.

   Often overlooked is the optional "noise package.' Some of these will triple the price of the generator - but are well worth it! Neither you, nor your neighbors, want to ever hear the generator run, and the 'standard' muffler is simply inadequate.

   Fuel supply is a constant concern. You can't just fill the tank, and let it sit there for the next decade.

   One area that separates the cheap generators from the expensive ones is the voltage regulator. The cheap ones are simply not reliable, and WILL damage anything electric that they power.

   No matter your generator choice, things will break. Cheaper generators use proprietary parts - meaning you're at the mercy of the manufacturer. If the manufacturer has issues with his dealer network, getting even a replacement air filter is impossible.

   Finally, there is the matter of installation. Do not forget that generators, in time of need, are very much at risk of theft.