coming aboard here today to post this query and see Bobby’s thread re: friend being sued
had hoped to stay even headed, calm & collected but now you got my gander up – hope justice prevails
My problem is I repaired a bad mud job, painted & produced a silk purse out of a sows ear & the client refuses to pay – I think it is much like Bill Clinton said about Monica – cuz he could
I do not have the state behind me because i had temporarily let my registration expire for about two yrs as I was very involved w/ remodeling our own house and took this on at the spur of the moment much having to do with my having done major construction projects for both this client’s mother & father ( separated couple ).
So no prospects for lien but know Small Claims could give me a chance for recovery of $ 5,000.
I am heading for law library tomorrow but would appreciate your input which generally supersedes all expectations
experiences, advice, prompts
many thanks, John
Replies
Please let us know how it works for you.
I suspect you better have your story straight regarding your "registration". Nothing galls me more than to know that you will not be entitled to your earnings even though you delivered a good product...because your "registration" was wrong. The lawyers have created a legal way of screwing the tradesmen. They won't have to even bother to evaluate the product.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Don't know what your particular requirements are for registration/ license, but here in MD your only hope to win if you were not legal would be attacking it as an employee/employer issue.
I agree. I'd go to court and explain that I was an employee and expected full withholding etc. The homeowner would have to produce a contract that stated otherwise. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Bend and spread ... the shark sought you out specifically because you had let your license expire!
Small claims won't help ... the judge may feel your pain, but this is how licensing laws are enforced. No license, no judgment.
You might be able to try the 'employee' angle, but I doubt it will work. Judges aren't stupid, and they've heard this all before.
On the other hand .... even if you know you'll lose, there is some value in making the guy show up and explain himself to the judge. Make him sweat some. Again, the judge is no dummy, and will not like seeing this game played out. The judge might find some way to award you something just out of disgust for this scammer.
Again all I have for reference is the state of MD. Our laws are written very well. Contracting without a license carries a max penalty of $20,000 and up to a year in jail. Iif I were not licensed, the last place I'd want to be is in front of a judge.
We have (and maybe it's been upped) a $30,000 dollar limit on work before it needs to have a licensed contractor. Also, small claims court is pretty much a joke here. You can win, and still not get paid. Liens don't usually come into play until the lienee tries to do something with their house. Best of luck, that stinks.
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
John, not good news but here in WA you are not entitled to payment if you were not registered. For non-WA folks the term "registered" is the same as "licensed" for all practical purposes. I would be careful pushing forward with your complaint, as the other party could simply drop a dime on you for working unregistered. The DoL would be interested in their side and might very well fine you.
Go to the guy's house to discuss the bill. Pretend to stumble and fall off of his porch or deck through his "faulty" railing. Pretend your back is hurt and sue for 80k plus attorney's fees.
Man, I've done it the legal way - I even won and got all my money - but no way would I ever do it again.
I say, take the law into your own hands - even if you do a couple of years, it will still be faster - plus they feed you.
Forrest
Two words: Nolo Press
Recommended by lawyers for people who aren't willing to lay down the big bucks for legal representation and aren't looking to do their own medical malpractice case:
Go here> http://www.nolo.com/resource.cfm/catID/D80CF756-DBF6-432D-B625E7D1A29183D0/104/308/273/
John--
How much is the bill he owes you? Is it really worth the risk of a court battle? If there is a licensing issue in your jurisdiction, you will likely find little sympathy from a small-claims judge, and, worse, you could be assesed costs to the defendant. If he shows up with a high-priced lawyer, that could get expensive.
Sad to say, but the justice system isn't always just and the good guys don't always win. Sometimes it's safer to stay away from the courts, and handle disputes like this in other ways.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
John this may seem far out but have you thought of getting in touch with one of those TV small claims court (Like Judge Judy). Just the title of your suit could prick their interest. "Lots of Mud slinging" I have no idea how to go about it or what their criteria is but maybe someone here in this collection of brains would.Just another option.And if I remember right lawyers are not allowed in Small Claims Court just the people involved.
Does the client know you have doubts about your license? He probably doesn't know you might have a weak case. All he knows is that you did a job and he didn't pay so you can bluff a bit.
You can file the claim against him and that may jar him loose. If he still refuses, you don't need to show up in court if you don't want to. You can drop the charges at the last minute if you wish.
I recently had a dispute with a former tenant regarding damages he would not pay for so I filed in small claims and within one hour of him receiving the papers I had my money.
Good luck.
While the work may have been justified, my guess is that you failed to get a signed change order. Did you even discuss this issue with the client? I'm guessing not. If this is true, then I too would have been reluctant to pay. Don't forget, the client doesn't understand construction, they only know what they were quoted and what you are now trying to charge them. In their eyes you are the crook. If you have a signed CO, then sue away. If not, then be satisfied with your original bill and chaulk the loss up to a lesson learned.
Certified boat fetish.
Edited 8/3/2008 10:07 am ET by 1110d
No sympathy here. this has nothing to do with the quality of your work
get friggin licensed! after a 2 year lapse I would'nt call that temporary. you knowingly and purposely broke the law. if you have any sense left you would'nt ask for retribution in court
I've paid thousands for reg. and insurance for more than just to set me apart from the fly-by-nights. I get mad when the only press on TV is about unscrupulous contractors. one bad apple makes us all look bad.
in my state (ct) you would'nt have a prayer in court and would probably find yourself behind bars. Ct actively hunts down unregistered contractors with the money I pay in for registration. I fully support their efforts.
you should lose if the law works properly
sorry man, theres your justice
you knowingly and purposely broke the law. if you have any sense left you would'nt ask for retribution in court
I've paid thousands for reg. and insurance for more than just to set me apart from the fly-by-nights
Yada yada yada... What a lot of self righteous ####.
What do you want? A friggin' medal? Why?
Because you paid your insurance premiums on time?
You call yourself maverick but you're a kneejerk conformist.
Give it a rest, mav.... your Tom Cruise fantasies are showing.
I'm somewhere in the middle on this one. I also pay zillions for insurance. I collect and remit sales tax on behalf of the state. I pay 1/2% of my gross as a business tax, and that's running me a four thousand a year. Anyone working unlicensed automatically eliminates these costs and undercuts me. Shouldn't it be a level playing field? I know a few older retired guys who do very small jobs here and there. I rarely do those, and I don't think it's a big deal. I know a few large, established contractors with crews doing large jobs who are breaking some or all of the rules. If I had a spare dime I'd drop it.
Shouldn't it be a level playing field?
No question that's the ideal but we're talking about a small job, done for a relative of a long term client. It's the sort of non-competitive job that is done on trust, both sides.
Anyone who has been in business for at least a year or two and has made an effort to be honest and fair, will recognize this kind of request, from numerous calls. We all feel an obligation to fit them in as a courtesy and as good PR.
BTW: I agree with a previous post recommending that, before taking legal action, the leverage should be applied to the original client, the close relative who referred this job.
I recall a similar case where the daughter was behaving irresponsibly, trying to duck the bill. I drove to the Mother's place of employment and spoke to her there, giving her chapter and verse of the entire proceedings.
She wasn't happy with my visit but it made my position very clear. She told me I'd have a check for the full amount in two days and I did.
Edited 8/4/2008 5:20 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
go ahead, stand up for the fly-by-nights. start a crusade if you like
if anyones colors are showing it would be yours.
dont pay your reg or your insurance then go out and give yourself an unfair advantage over your competition. seems OK with you
...until it bites you in the ####
How do you get fly-by-night from what the OP said about his work situation?
You want to ream him a new one because he took on a poorly done job, probably by a real fly-by-night operator, and brought it up to standard, at the request of old clients?
Look again. This is a tradesman who deserves respect for taking good care of his clients.
anyone who calls a person a "knee-jerk conformist" for following the rules of the law says more about his character than mine
unregistered = fly by night. chances are pretty good that if the guy has'nt paid his reg. in a couple of years he has'nt paid his insurance either
now that its spelled out for you....?
OK. You're not a knee jerk conformist. You're what's left when the knee and the conformist are removed.
now that its spelled out for you....?
I'd say this attempt of yours to formulate a simple question proves my point admirably.
This is a response for the State of Michigan only:You must be properly licensed in this state and that license must be current in order for you to litigate in the courts. That includes Small Claims style cases. Absent that license the case - if you are the plaintiff - must be dismissed. If you are the defendant a default judgement will enter against you for the amount of damages claimed. Small Claims in Michigan is limited in the amount of damages - $3500.00.Even if the defendant - the homeowner - knew you were unlicensed and took advantage of that fact - say you did a complete remodel job for thousands of dollars - and then refuses to pay knowing he was NEVER going to pay in the first place you are out of luck. You cannot even bring you claim under some common law theory since the preclusion statute covers all suits arising out of the use of talents that are to be licensed by the sate.Mike
That's how it is in MI. No license....you lose. Homeowners could use unlicensed builders to build an entire house and not pay them a penny. The homeowner would win...if he lived. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You may not like the man, but he has a point ... We may not like them all the time, but the rules do exist, and they're there for all to follow. I suspect there are very, very few 'fly by night' contractors that actually live in their trucks, and flit from town to town, in the middle of the night. Oh, no. They're just like you and I ... with homes, mortgages, kids in school .... and constantly running around looking for more work.
The difference? These guys give themselves an advantage out of the starting gate, by not bothering to get the licenses, pay the taxes, suffer the permits and inspections that the honest man struggles under. Out of work? Then get a job. We all have hit speed bumps on the road of life. But DON'T LIE. Not even a little, by 'pretending' to 'not really be a contractor' ... while you are doing exactly that. This CUSStomer, this bottom-feeder ..... decided that the proper way to treat someone who 'wasn't really a contractor' was to 'not really pay him.' Almost daily, I encounter these ambitious 'pretend contractors.' Also, almost daily, I encounter prospective customers who toss my card as soon as they get to the license number. It's pretty clear that they're seeking an unlicensed contractor. I suspect that charity is not their motive. Oh, btw .... failure to pay, and lack of a license, are not reasons that let you evade responsibility for the work you did.
I've never worked in a highly regulated jurisdiction so I haven't had to deal with the kind of frustration you've obviously been up against.
But I can't argue with you when you read so much more into the OP's post than is written there.
Taking him at his word, he isn't a scofflaw, just a guy who took some time off from a long remodel of his own home to help out the daughter of an old client.
He wasn't competing with anyone for the job because it was a flea-ridden dog to start with. So the only person who's getting ski-rude is this brother tradesman of ours.
Violin returning to case. Case closed.
Have you looked into paying up your "back fee" to cover the years missed? That might work for the state thing.
Me on the last day, I have my paperwork already to be paid and I time it so I can ask for the balance at the end. I also don't leave till I get paid.
ALWAYS get a deposit! AND payments with progress!
I don't care who it is! Your NOT a bank or credit card Co.
It's been my experience on a few occasions, that when a claim is filed in small claims court, and the defendant doesn't respond, they are held in default. Which sounds fine and dandy, except when it comes time to
collect the monies due. I have one case where the client was notified
via certified mail and process server, and never responded, that was a year ago.Whatever happened to the old days where a couple of "resolution experts" were sent to fix the problem ?
I have returned here after enjoying a spell over at the hornet nest thread - yes definitely preferable to this venue
Had hopes for some stories or experiences more favorable to my predicament
I spoke w/ an attorney about a lien & his advocating for me but as has been expressed here the courts provide an avenue for recourse for legal participants
I had ( still have a glimmer of a notion ) that the small claims arena was a last refuge for justice regardless of credentials or lack ofgood to get so many perspectivesheading along your way 5 brown 1 w/ a healthy respect for SanJuanDave & other's warning of don't jeopardize present situation w/ state & bonding agentMaverick my apologies for your take on my being such a violator of your standards - to use your word lapse I've done that numerous times - to build my folks a home, to build a spec home, to go in the Peace Corps, to remodel my own 1900 home twice and this time I was doddling as my request for a variance w/ the city for my neighbors addition seemed to be going nowhere and I opted to go with this client after getting a call rom her mom for whom I have worked 30 yrs - I was a "hero" & just the right guy to get her out of this mess
you knowingly & purposefully - never once even considered it but yes I suppose ignorance no defense
the day the variance was honored I was registering & bondingI'll keep you guys posted, John
Might sound dumb, but have you told her mom? That might get you somewhere or the mom might even pay you and take it out of the daughter's inheritance.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
My experience is when you have judgement in hand, find a collection agency. They love those situations and have the experience and know how too collect!
It will cost you, but at this time all you really want is a pound of flesh. They know how to destroy the persons credit even more than the judgement.
Will do
Thanks,, John
Some states have "theft of services" laws which make it misdemeanor to hire a tradesperson, licensed or otherwise, to do a job, then not pay up in a timely fashion.
Pennsylvania has had such a law on the books for a long time. I'd research that possibility first.
So...exactly what did they tell you was the reason they won't pay??
Small claims court is easy - Settle.