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Hello all,
Have you ever noticed and accounted for how much time small tasks can eat up in comparison to large ones?
Example: I with two others helping recently set 19 trusses and sheated and dried in the roof of a detached garage in two days. Yet lately, trying to finish my own house, I’ve eaten up several 11 hour days just glueing up stock for the stair handrails, trim out the staircase, putting down shoe moulding, laying up a few glass block, etc.
Is it that detail work just takes so much more time due to accuracy and precision compared to rough jobs (framing, trusses, etc)…or am I just REALLY slow?!
And have you ever tried to explain how long it takes for the final aspects of a project to any customer or non-construction individual as they view the final things as being the fastest and easiest when I find it is exactly the opposite?
Mike
Replies
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I love it when homeowners say....."How much to build a simple cabinet?"........or......"I just need a new window put in." How about...."All we want to do is enclose the porch and make a new room."
RED FLAG!!!
They have no idea what's involved.
Ed.
*Ed, Yup. HUGE RED FLAG! I like when dimensions determine the task level of the project. "I just want to bump this wall out 6 inches" 6 inches or 6 feet...almost the same amount of work...Mike
*Like when they say it should only take you a day to trim out this house after all it's only trim... HELLO!!! no lie I had a builder tell me that I should only need one day to trim (this included installing 6 prehung doors also) a 1700sq ft home, while tripping over plumbers, electricians and carpet installers. yeah right.
*But it's apples to oranges... Stacking trusses all day long is way different than i glueing up stock for the stair handrails, trim out the staircase, putting down shoe moulding, laying up a few glass block, etc.It's much easier to set up for one task then many tasks.
*This might be a touch off subject but, why do those 10 minute jobs turn into 2 hours? It always happens and throws me off. I think it has to do with Murphy's law or something.
*>This might be a touch off subject but, why do those 10 minute jobs turn into 2 hours?On a job site a ten minute job takes me ten minutes.......at home where my shop is (and computer) a ten minute job takes two hours........cause, well, I'm always goofin off..........like now.
*> This might be a touch off subject but, why do those 10 minute jobs turn into 2 hours?I'm sure there are many answers to this, but one might be "Because you are not specialized enough". For example, if the only thing you did was crown insatllation, you probably have everything you could possibly need to do the job on your truck. You've installed thousands of feet of crown and even when you run into something you've never seen before, you've seen something similar. You solve problems quickly.If you do not at all specialize (like me), then you often have to go to the hardware store to get that little part or that particular tool or to get advice on how to solve this problem which is unlike any you've ever seen before.Rich Beckman
*MikeThe devils in the detail.I lose myself in details, this is where I define who I am. This is where quality and time are synonymous. You can get faster at detailed tasks but you'll have to invest time and repetition. The trick is finding clients who want the quality you want to deliver. This is a huge trick, but most people in our business are more concerned with speed than quality, so there is an untapped market for quality, but you have to find it. Terry
*Michael, speed is a function of experience. Rich is right...specialization creates speed. Specialization also (usually) results in a higher quality product. When you shift gears, you lose lots of time, because you are attempting to gain experience. Eventually, you will be experienced and the speed will follow.Turn the tables. Ask a trimmer to set the trusses and sheath the roof. They might take a lifetime. blue
*Big jobs you take seriously. You think through your materials, have all the right tools there and set up, and when you jump in, you focus and know what you have to do.Small jobs, especially for yourself, take forever. You're always missing something. The kids are fighting, or want to help. The phone's ringing. Wife wants to know if she looks good in the new dress. Your focus is everywhere but in the job. And then you have to run to the hardware store because of what you forgot. And they don't have what you need. And you're trying to squeeze whatever they have into whatever you're doing.Small jobs can take forever.SHG
*A few years ago we got a 3 page punchlist from an architect at the end of the job. My partner, who had been running the job, was outraged, since virtually none of the items were in the specifications or plan notes and some of the deficiencies were due to the architects mistakes (ie. The cabinets had been ordered by the architect and did not remotely fill the space available for them.) He wrote a scathing letter to the architect and showed it to me before sending it. I told him to put it in a file and I would tackle the punchlist which he estimated would take three days. I assembled everything I thought I would need and spent less than 30 minutes on each item and was out of there before 2:30 in the afternoon.The owner was completely happy with the result and paid us promptly. Sometimes what you need is a fresh look at the end of the job. What looks like a big problem is often very simple if it is not a problem that you are responsible for. My partner has returned the favor for me since then.
*excellent story Schelling.All too often, we want to take a stand on principle, at the expense of many other factors. I often need to be reminded of this lesson.Thanks again.blue
*Most of my skills lie in finish and trim. I can frame from the ground up...but am happiest when I'm fitting and fussing.....where is where I came up with this thought.......I don't wanna be real fast.....what do ya think it would mean...if in a coupla years....and a friend of my customer comes in....and looks at the mantle I just build from scratch...as said....."Wow....looks like this guy was FAST!" Doesn't sound like much of a compliment, does it! Jeff
*another point I think is that the set up and tear down time is always there and on a big job is a far smaller proportion than it is on a small job.
*I started my finish carpentry business just about 5 months ago & I thought trimming out a 1700 sqr foot house in a day was imposible myself. Fortunatly the builder needed someone & didnt just tell me to leave when I gave him my price. HE showed me other invoices from his other finish carpenters & I said hey.. If they can do it for that so can I.The first house took me & helper 5 days. Then back for another day finishing up things like closet bars, door handles etc etcNow It takes me about 1.5 days for the same house. But I have notices it takes just about as long to do the small finishing details as it does to do the major portion of the job.We hang all the doors in the house by noon & have all the window trim cut. While my helper is nailing the window trim on Im messuring the base. Usually we have the house done the first day with the exception of bathrooms & kitchen base (cant put that in till the flooring & cabnets are installed). That takes us a day. BUT after we have to go back & simply put in door handles, closet rods & final little bit of base it takes us almost as much time as hanging the doors & trimming out 90% of the house. What up wit dat??Door handles take all of 5 mins to put in & theres usually only about 10 of them. But it just seems to take forever to get all the little piss ant things done. Mabey its all the movement. or just looking over the lists to figuring out what to do next. Takes longer to think then work I guess.Ted
*off topic... but you have mail blue. lemme know if you got it.
*Ted, wanna save some time?Stop making lists. Instead of making them, just do them!blue
*blue, did you get my e-mail? my 'puter was really screwed up so I really want to know.BTW, I did get your tapes in the mail. Should be there in a couple days. If you like them, keep them as a gift. If not pass them on to someone who will like them and thanks.
*I once had a boss who said: "The last 5% of a job is the hardest part.Maybe that applies here.
*Yes I did, Wet Head and thanks. I sent a return email. yesterday. It hasnt bounced, so I assume it's in your storage.blue
*You and a helper Ted. I'm one person and had to fight other trades that were constantly right where I needed to be. that and I had 16' materials in a 16' room to work in (cut and such) and it was raining outside and a muddy nightmare after that. half the time I had trim hanging out the door in the rain so I could even cut it. whole job was plagued with crap like that. sure in an ideal situation it can be done but not with those I mentioned.
*I am finding my niche in small jobs, and the small tasts for those are as bad if not worse than a full house refresh/remodel! I do jobs that most contractors would scoff at, kinda bridging the gap between handyman and contractor (which I am by insurance and license). The key is to be organized in your job trailor and experience. I get better at every job with the mental tool lists and figuring materials for those little "simple" jobs.
*While you guys who have been trimming for 6 months probably have it all sussed out, and, I've only been doing it for 15 years, I'm gonna throw my coupla cents in anyhow. Get there early, set up early, and make the sleepyheads work around you. If you have to stick your trim out a window in the rain, and that upsets you, go for bigger houses, or stick out in the rain. Michael, you probably are slow on the detailed stuff, suck it up and get faster, if it really bothers you. Sometimes we're slow 'cause we've gotta figure it out as we go. Admit it. Some people are not as quick at solving problems as others. Admit that, too. Some people say they can do things they don't really know how to do. Loosing money oughta be a quick education there. Some people have the right stuff in the truck to do a job in 5 minutes. Is that luck, or what? Some days you get the peanut, somedays you get the shell. Quit the whining and start working efficently...Always ready to help, BB
*AH my old "buddy" bucksnort Holly. not whining just stating. other jobs have gone like clockwork and with surprising precision. this one in particular didn't. and due to scheduling errors on the GC's part they got slaughtered by all of the trades running WAY over budget. some jobs are like that Holly but then with 15 years you already knew that didn't you. I've been doing this work as my full time job for a little over 6 mos. I've been doing this and many other things alot longer than that on the side. no I don't know it all. none of us do. but I'll bet you I'm alot better and faster than that mental image you have painted in you mind. either way it doesn't really matter because I'm not here to impress you or anyone else for that matter. I'm learning and sharing some of my experiences just like everyone else here.
*Along with this thought, Why is it when you happen to under bid something, these are the jobs that go to complete S*@%! (Sorry Andy) Do we sabatoge ourselves or is it something more sinister? What evil lurks in the low bid?
*Its already been said ,but this is what I do with repos and rentals. Organization. Do the little job in your head instead of watching tv for example. List the tools and materials on a pad as you are doing the job in your mind. Then do the job again looking at the pad. Then go load it instead of watching the show, and be at the lumber yard at 6.30 and the hardware store at 7,donut and coffee at the drive through and you are there at 7.30. This is the way I do punch work. hope it helps,Tim
*I think the little jobs take the longest because of all the loading and unloading of gear, the "I guess I should bring this tool, just in case......" and the array of little things that happen on the way. Say you have a hole in drywall that needs to be patched or one window to trim. Do you plan on returning to the site to sand out the patch and put the final coat on? Little job just ate three hours of time. How about the window? mitre saw? table saw? nailer, putty,level etc you unpack set up make the cuts nail it in pack up and bam a couple hours... if the window has been installed nicely. I think if you had a whole place to do it would go quicker because the set up is eaten away by the total time on the job and you get a feeling of a lot more being accomplished during that time frame. How do you go about charging for this? At 45/hour that is one serious hole in the drywall.....plumbers and electricians usually have a call out fee here and it is normally the amount of one hour so any job that takes only a part of an hour is charged as two. This sounds good to me!Cheers
*Steve, Actually I didn't have any mental image of your work, or the speed at which you do it. It's probably fine. I do remember that you have a teensy tendancy to exaggerate the facts... I was just sharing with you...if you want to stay in construction, you have to roll with the punches. It's best to be happy with your work, no matter what your job is. And, if you're going to keep trimming, you'd better get used to having every other trade in your way at some time or another. Dang, it's usually all the time...so, you were sharing what?Yer pal, Bucksnort Hilly
*"Hilly" I rolled with it. I just don't like having my trim in the rain so it starts to look like boat building material after a bit. I was sharing a rant this time. I'm edgy, things have been slow for a couple of weeks and I get itchy to get out there and build something. sorry. you and I had some run ins in the past and I guess I was a "little" on the defensive side.
*Brent... You use Durabond on small jobs. Sets in 20 minutes plus and no shrink. You have to know the tricks.near the Durabond stream for all drywall work up to new home footage and then even in corners and any other large fills,ajThere is a new product out too at Lowes... Called LaFarge Rapid Coat. Check it out. All jobs can be done twice as fast as you can do them today.
*Hey AJ, I've tried the LaFarge stuff. their redimix anyway and it was bubble city. I had to work it twice as much just to get the bubbles out and then when I went back to sand I found more hidden below. this was two separate jobs with different buckets, so for me it's back to USG. just my 2¢ worth.Steve
*Yes Moutainous one, the benifits of Durabond or we have "Sheetrock 20 40 etc" are known but you still need to mix, apply and wait the twenty minutes or return for more coats sanding etc and if the repair is really fast, you still must add in the time to pack for the job, decend the mountain and get to the job, do the job, pack up and make it near the stream and this takes more time than one would think. Cheers!