Ok: I’m trying to build a career, trying to get my act together, trying to develop a plan. Kinda wide open right now. No clue where I’m going to land.
I’ve been doing work at my folks’ place, and Dad was talking about converting an existing shed that’s about 700 ft^2 into a wood shop: insulate and heat it, wire it, pipe for air. The shed is a modern building in good condition. Dad said he’d be fine with me doing professional work there. Got me thinking.
Mom and Dad’s project has a lot of cabinetry, which has all been finished by a pro in a spray booth. It turned out awesome: this guy matched Dad’s color sample *perfectly*, and the whole thing is beautiful. Got me thinking.
Who here builds kitchens? Frameless is the standard in this market, so no frames to worry about. My thoughts:
– sub out design
– Buy mouldings
– Buy doors
– sub out finishing
Ye gods, I’m 90% there.
– build boxes
– install
Well, not quite that simple. But perhaps less complicated than it sould seem, at first blush.
I actually know a couple who used to have a tiny kitchen business like this. They had a shop with a tablesaw, and not much else. They did only paint-grade, and to finish the doors they’d drive them down to Your Own Garage and spray them there!
I dunno. I’m just trying to find my feet these days.
Replies
I thought that your dad already owned a cabinet company.
Why replciate that?
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
His company makes solid wood cabinet doors. Just the doors.
In the future, they also plan to make solid wood drawer boxes.
Biff
Just curious.
Why don't you go to work for your dad and learn the business from the ground up?
Seems like you are searching for a career in construction and it's right under your nose.
If you don't want to be stuck in a shop, I understand. I like to be outdoors as much as possible.
Rich
100% disinterested. It's no shop - it's industry, man. 65 employees and about one thousand doors per day. Lots of politics, lots of drama. My Dad is very extraverted, driven, loves taking risks, and is demanding of others. He might be the perfect guy for the job. I'm introverted, accomodating, and risk-averse. I'm not and never will be the right person to manage or own that place.
It takes a wise and good man to realize that, let alone tell others.
pete
I agree.
Just been curious for a while. Ever since Biff came out of the closet on his Dad's business in a thread on touring the shop.
Biff thanks for that tour. It was fun.
Rich
You are very wise grasshopper!!! (you may be to young for that one).
Good luck, Lou
I thought that your dad already owned a cabinet company.
Why replciate that?
Gonna run the old man out of business!
I once had a one man cabinet/furniture company.......bought (or cut myself) rough lumber and built fairly high end cabinets/chairs/tables/etc......mortise and tennon/hand cut dovetail.........cherry/walnut/maple.
I did OK, but the competition was ferocious. And most people couldn't, nor did they seem to care about much except a pretty finish and a low cost.........
It will cost you thousands of dollars to set up a spray/finish operation like the big boys have so I'd sub out the finish work........the rest of the stuff, doors etc. you gotta realize that the more you sub the less you make......and should only consider doing so if your backlogged.
All in all one or two man operations are a thing of the past.....but it is fun and fullfilling if your not caring about a bank account or a portfolio/.
In my area, you just have to be a good installer as folks seem to love what they can get at HD or Lowes for the quality and price. Let them pick it out there, have it delivered and you handle the installation and some little touches to make it custom (crown, special features you can build like pull-outs, etc)
I have to tell you I built all the cabinetry for my own house and although its a large kitchen and custom as its octagonal in size, I still don't know if it was worth it due to the time it took. And I have an 1100 sq ft shop in my back yard.
If I were to have "sold" that job I would have end up making about $6 an hour.
We looked at this a few years ago. One of the old time wood and cabinet guys died and his shop was for sale. The numbers simply didn't work. We have sold 40+ kitchens since I have been in business and not once did anyone even mention custom cabinets.
More and more people are comforable with store bought stuff. The 3 custom cabinets shops that are left in my area are all struggling. I know there are 3 more sitting idle as the owners work for someone else. I think their will always be a few around but overall that is a changing area of our business and not for the better. DanT
Theres always a few shops around and none of them are going too well. I think your calculations were spot on.
I did some individual cabinets to match other built ins and quickly decided exit. I couldnt charge enough . I used to say in drywall when my feet left the ground I was losing money. Same thing really.
Tim
Edited 6/6/2008 9:20 pm by Mooney
From Biff's post #1 (remember Biff? he started this thread) I took it as him looking for information about what it takes to operate a cabinetmaking business.
There are a whole bunch of cabinet shop owner/operators in the country that think of what they do more as a craft or an art, than as a business. A great many of them feel that their methods, techniques, materials, etc., are totally top end, and not only haven't changed anything in years, but would never think about change.
Buckley is a strategic thinker. He made and sold many hundreds of kitchens worth of faceframed stuff before he changed to frameless, and did it with a three-man shop, himself included, the most expensive piece of gear a slider.
If Biff wants to learn something, he can get some good info from Buckley. It's up to Biff.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Well, I like the way you think. I'd comment further, but it's bedtime.Long story short: I'm not attracted to the idea because of the opportunity to exercise craftsmanship.
If your dad would like to set you and him up with a nice workshop, a place where you can work individually or together on a variety of projects, I say go ahead and do it.
There's never been a carpenter who didn't dream of having a nice shop space, something separate from the house where he could expand his horizons, his knowledge and his skills. And there's never been a loving father who didn't want to have a place where he and his son(s) could work together.
As for building custom cabinets as your main business, that's a tough market unless you have a name for it in the right social circles. But that doesn't mean that you should abandon the idea, just be prepared for any opportunity that comes up.
BTW, I've recently purchased a Kreg K3 Master System pocket hole jig, along with a couple of DVDs and books on how to make the best use of that tool. It's makes some nice improvements over previous methods of building cabinets.
I bring this up because it's a faster and easier way to produce strong, accurate joints which require no clamping or waiting for glue to dry. That may be the difference in productivity which makes the custom cabinet business competitive enough to go up against factory made units.
Custom work will never be able to compete directly but as long as you can keep prices in the ball park, there will always be a market for well designed custom kitchens.
Edited 6/6/2008 9:54 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Biff, we do new homes and remodels, with ten or twelve kitchens a year. All we use are small local cabinetmakers. We do fairly high end stuff, but not crazy high end, lots of doctors and lawyers. Stock cabinets just don't give us the right look, and our carpenters don't like installing kitchens so we get the cabinet guys to do it.
Judging by how busy the local woodworkers are, other GC's like us are using the same guys. I've though often about getting into that career, and that's what I did through my 20's in the Boston/Cape Cod area, but I don't like being at the scheduling mercy of companies like ours!
The same guys usually do our vanities, medicine cabinets, entertainment centers, and sometimes the mudroom cabinets. We do some of the simpler stuff on site or in our shop but sub out as much as we can. We make more money marking up their work than we would building it ourselves.
I am meeting with one potential customer this morning to talk about an entertainment center she wants built, then meeting with a different couple late this afternoon to discuss a house full of cabinets they want built for their new home.
In between I'm meeting with a designer I work with to discuss converting a garage into an accesory dwelling unit and another remodeling project she designed and would like to see us build. Last month we installed 800 sq ft of cherry flooring and remodeled two bathrooms and painted the interior of a house we own.
My point is, yes, we build kitchens, but it's not something we rely on. We do a lot of different types of work. Some years we don't build ANY cabinetry, some years we are in the shop several projects in a row. Over the past 17 years, I guess we've built 10, maybe 12 kitchens, installed a few sets of store bought cabinets, and even subbed out cabinetry to other shops as part of larger remodeling projects.
Many shops in our area do just what you asked about, sell the job, order a bunch of parts, assemble parts, maybe apply finish themselves, maybe sub that out too, install cabinets. I think that's a pretty competetive business, more like commerce than cabinetmaking.
If you really want to jump into cabinet work, you owe it to yourself to look into the True32 methodology.
True32 is an entire business program developed for small to middle-sized cabinet businesses, and it is the creation of Bob Buckley and his colleague Mark Poole.
As I am able to understand, Bob's father was or is a woodworking machinery jobber, and Bob went into and helped expand the operation, selling machinery into cabinet shops all over the southeastern U.S. Big panel saws, CNC-driven sliders, horizontal boring rigs, line drills, finishing equipment, dust collection, everything. Bob got to see and understand the business operations of hunreds of different cabinet shops.
He decided to go into cabinetmaking as a business on his own, and after building framed cabs for a while and making good profits, did some serious analysis and realized that frameless made a whole lot more sense.
Bob wrote and sells a book that describes his business approach, and it gets into the details of shop operations, cost accounting, marketing, and selling jobs. It is quite worthwhile.
Bob and Mark worked together to develop a lot of excellent proprietary software for running a cabinet business, and classes, training, and support are all offered.
Go to the True32 website, and see what might be there for you.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
without even going to the website i would like to reply, i was trying to read all the posts before replying but this one caught my eye.
any of the shops you mentioned that have the state of the art cnc machines can make all of the pieces from a CAD 3D drawing. then all you have to do is assemble finish and install.
i would imagine that an excellent business plan would become a great CAD drafter, sell cabinets and furniture to clients, and sub out everything else. send by email the plan to the cnc shop. assembly, finish and install with subs. very low overhead and great flexibility. if you are a good CAD technician and salesman your in, if not try to get the assemble finish install job.
i am curious to see how close true32 business plan is to my first thoughts?
Nope. You're wrong.
True32 has nothing at all to do with CNC or CAD.
It's about money and success, through production woodworking in a "flow-manufacturing" setting. Here is the website of the closest T32 biz partner to your location.
http://www.cabinetmasters-t32.com/
Read the "about us" section, and then read the "process" writeup.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Edited 6/6/2008 9:27 pm ET by Gene_Davis
sorry, i thought you posted about a guy that sold and helped set up that type of equipment, and the business plan that evolved from his experience doing that. i just assumed he was taking advantage of modern technology to be as efficient and profitable as possible, and included that in his business plan.
isnt that about money? are you in the money biz?
I do as you described in post 18, but I don't sub the installs. We prefer to do them ourselves. Just closed another one today.
But I don't True32. The only thing I got from Buckley is a somewhat more efficient carcase design.
We buy Camar leg skids from him, also Grass slides.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
i have only made my own cabinets, and for a couple of other customers who were friends, and like oak river mike i made about $6 pr hr.
i just wanted to see if my first thought, or gut instinct was in the ball park.
Oh, and although we occasionally use frameless, most of our work is face frame because our projects have a historic aspect to them. Frameless can be a very efficient way to build but there are many details that can be done more elegantly using face frames. I've developed a face frame system that uses some of the advantages of 32mm hardware by flushing the inside of the carcass to the inside of the face frame.
Just saw this. You have anything more to share about how you set up this face frame / 32mm system? I'm interested as I'm thinking about the same kind of hybrid approach.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
I just got back from a new dealer orientation at Wellborn in Ashland, AL. There were many new dealers there who were adding the line to existing custom cabinetry or replacing their custom with it. Most will tell you that the market for true custom cabinetry made by local people is getting smaller every year. The Wisconsin dealer said that lots of people couldn't afford his custom work, and he needed to increase his customer base for his son who would be taking over the business.
Any small business struggles today, and cabinet people face a tough road. You can compete with the big boxes, tho. Their product is so-so, their design training turns out lots of incompetents, and their customer service sucks! You need to identify your market niche and tailor your business to it.
I would sub out anything you don't feel you can do to a customer's complete satisfaction. It's the finish that most focus on, and a bad one can kill even the best cabinet work. Find the absolute best sub you can and expect quality and consistency on every job.
I'd like to build kitchens but its hard to compete with the big boys. Their costs are so low simply because of the scale of their business.
If you can find people willing to pay extra for custom work you'd be all set. Dont know if that will happen in this climate though.
Yeah. . .
I've seen operations in which CNC saws cut a pile of however-many melamine sheets at once into gable stock. I caught onto the fact that they're very efficient.
Ah well.
Had my own shop on the property for about 12 years. Between carpentry jobs, I built cabs, built ins, one of a kind stuff. Some heirloom style stuff even. I loved it, but never really made any kind of big money at it, enough to cover costs and give myself an ok salery. But that was with carpentry jobs along side.
I do a lot of kitchen installs these days, both middle and high end and I really enjoy doing that. I've gotten fairly good and fast at it. Some cabinet companies have gotten really great with the product they turn out. I could never compete with it with a single man shop like I had
Best thing to do is find a specialty, a niche and go with it, something that the big boys don't really do. It's almost impossible to compete with the big shops. Business wise, you're better off getting high quality cabs, do the mark up, and then you install.
But if you love doing it...I can understand.
I am a one man show, do remodels and finnish carpentry. I also have a shop where I do small kitchen and bathroom cab jobs. I lovve being able to never leave te compound for days at a time. I don't to frameless cabs cuz you really need a good edge bander to do those. Plus I don't care for the cheap appearance. I Order doors and drawer boxes. My biggesst problem is I haven't been able to fiind the right finisher. sooo... I say go for it. It might be hard to do it full time but you never know!
Biff, Don't sub the design out. Come up with the niche!
I'm a cabinet maker and we only build cabinets with inset doors which eliminates Home depot or lowes.
My advice is find that niche market and go for it
This is what I mean by inset doors (resize Mr reynolds please)
Good luck, Lou C
Sorry about the size- I'll figure how to resize someday
-LMC
Here's a smaller version:
View Image
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Edited 6/13/2008 8:15 am ET by MikeHennessy
Nice, Lou. You do your own painting?
Yes, i do most of my own painting. Some times I farm it out to a very good finisher in NJ
I've found a kick-#### finisher. This guy has a great ability to match any finish - just give him a sample. He's been a finisher for 22 years, but his business is relatively new (employee previously). He told me: "I'd like to get busier."This has given me a brainwave. Right now, the shop at Dad's place is hypothetical. I wonder if I should try and build a business around refacing kitchens? I know there's demand around here.
Edited 6/13/2008 6:11 pm ET by Biff_Loman
I'll figure how to resize someday
Open the file in paint. Even a numbnutz like me can resize.
MikeInsert initially amusing but ultimately annoying catch phrase here.