i have been building my own house for the past year or so. we are almost finished and i am getting back to making money instead of spending it. with the high price of doing business these days i was wondering if others gc’s are raising rates. i know that this subject is somewhat taboo. i live in oklahoma and the average rate was $27-$30 per hour and $14-$17 per helper. that was for those of us who have insurance and pay taxes. can someone tell me if that is still average in your area and how much everyone is charging for cabinets, trim, framing, etc. my cons’t estimator varies from area to area but seems to low for some jobs and to high for others. and why do homeowners think that they need health care, paid vacations, retirement, and we are suppose to work for free? they want it done right, done free, and done yesterday. i’m thru venting now, back to work.
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Replies
Just time to play yer guitar a little bit then things will be alright.
be alright
Peace in.
Normally do not reply to this type of query, as I'm DIY primarily, but hanging in th TUS apt waiting for a plane and have some time.
My 2 cents.
re: been building my own house for the past year or so.
Huh, why worry about GC rates then?? Or are you "having somebody else build a house like I tell them rather than "been building my own house for the past year or so."
Big difference to both the pros and DIY and semi-pro on this board. Tell us what part you are doing and what you think you cannot do; rest assured, 'we' will tell you how to do it in 40 different ways!!l.
PS unless you are disabled, you can do it all esp if you took a year away from your day job. Many DIY here 100% built their own house in less than 2 years while working a full time job. Others (Frenchy comes to mind first) are building a veritable multi-million mansion while continuing the day job - but think Frenchy has been at if for at >5 years IIRC
where in OK do you live? I've got a plan to move there in 2010, hopefully somewhere in the southeast part of tulsa.
50 miles west of oklahoma city. tulsa is a beautiful place.
i live a 160 miles north. are you talking 27-30 for a lead carpenter?or as the owner of your company paying all the stuff? i'd rather have the helpers pay and not pay the ins and o/h. if thats for a lead and a experienced helper i'd say your not far off for around here. i don't think any body has seen a big raise in the last year,no matter what profession.
around here most hourly paid employees make less than 30. most in the teens ,some at 10. not many break into that 30 plus on a time clock. larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Well-- 2 cents.
I just hate the thought of this being a slave trade... At that rate you better have a bunch of carpenteros scrambling through hourly jobs...
You making $30, them being paid 10 and billed for 17...
Not much left.
Comodity.
It suks being a comodity.
Last hourly work I did was about 4 years ago... Billed out at $60, helpers at 39. Toronto... Hanging solid doors and doing 3 part crown. I imagine that is a long way from OK in many ways.
A tough market demands tough rates but for Gods sake know when to push rates back up...it makes the biz better for all of us to be billing as much as the market will bear.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Vancouver BC market now not much different. Had to pay 50.--/hr to get good carpenters. First class finishers demand up to 75/hr. Mind you with gas looming at 6/gal you got to cover your expenses. It is only numbers. If living cost are up you have to ask for more. If things would come down you also can come down. Remember when you could get your car fixed for 25/hr.? Now they want 110/hr. Why should you work for 25/hr?
Vancouver is a good example--huge cost of even just housing.
It comes down to what we should accept--what is our self appraised value?
What will the market bear?
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Our 1300sqft rancher on a 45ftx 140ft lot was assessed over 100.000,-- more from last year. Small residences are now approaching 1 mil. It will be ugly when it crashes. Can you imagine being stuck with a 500k mortgage and your house is worth only 250k?
Your house is only worth what people are willing to pay for. All other thinking is smoke
"Can you imagine being stuck with a 500k mortgage and your house is worth only 250k?"That's already happening in MI Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
we went thru the 80s recession. Our house dropped from 395k to 172k within 6 months
Semar-- you missed my point.
YOUR WORTH (Hourly), your self appraised worth is what I was talking about--what you bill out at.
Real estate in most areas (Michigan, St. Louis, Windsor, Oshawa and St. Catherines and any other places overinvested in American Based Automotive Excepted), will rise and fall accordingly.
Certain areas in Toronto may correct like that for a year or two as well. Smart money will sit on it. Smart money should have gotten out of Windsor with their wallets 3 years ago--Like Blue.
Every area is different. As a general rule when real estate corrects 50% there is normally underlying reasons for the whole local economy tanks. Often it is about half psychological. Tampa looks a bit different to me--since it is paradise.
I watched a friend lose their shirt last year in Windsor. If he had sold 3 years ago he would have preserved about 80k Equity. Last year he could have sold and walked away from a house he had for 15 years without a penny--now he's half way through a bankruptcy with no work and can't walk away from the house because it's now worth about 100k less than he owes.
Now... my friend there now has to reinvent himself. He needs to cut his expenses and simply get to work. He either re-tools, specializes, or changes what he does entirely--but the window of opportunity for leaving is past. If he has no vision he can sell himself as a slave...like Michelangelo did at 30.
Sometimes we have to bust our Ba11s.
BUt there is one more factor that he is not realizing. IN EVERY ECONOMY--someone is making money. Find them and sell to them.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
"BUt there is one more factor that he is not realizing. IN EVERY ECONOMY--someone is making money. Find them and sell to them."That was the thing I didn't understand when I suffered through the early 80's. I carried a negative mentality with me everywhere I went. MI had 10% unemployment which was worse than now, but that still meant that 90% of the people were working! I had a lot to offer them, but didn't understand my value. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I thought our perception deteriorated with age?
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
to the first question: My present rate is 55/hr
to the second comment: The banks were the winners. When thousands of people loose their home there are reasons and circumstances that lay outside their capabilities. Nobody in sound mind would not protect their interest if they had the opportunity but obviously they had no way of knowing what was coming.
So, who controls the financial activities? Certainly not the ordinary person. If government decisions go over dead bodies just to protect their interest the little guy gets rolled over - and they dont care.
Of course no bank has ever stolen a house... They are not nasty people... <!----><!----><!---->
Reminds me of that old Michael Keaton movie filmed in the salvage yard... "Of all the things in the world you could have been--you had to be a banker".<!----><!---->
Its just business. Don't take it personally.<!----><!---->
Those with the gold rule. <!----><!---->
Don't go into business with a 500 lb gorilla, someone who is incompetent, or anyone who may be corrupt if you can help it. Government-lawyers-banks should be avoided as partners.<!----><!---->
Little guys always get rolled over... all through history. No fun being a peasant. <!----><!---->
We little guys have to become successful to avoid being rolled over which means doing things and thinking different than most other little guys. We need to work harder, smarter and be more creative. <!----><!---->
Most people that lose their house see plenty of writing on the wall. Everyone in the UK that is overextended should be acting to protect their investment. People working in financial services presently should be cutting their exposure. In fact... the American Automotive industry has been declining for 15 years now... it's no secret. Plenty of writing on that wall.<!----><!---->
I don't mean to be cruel--but it is through history that we can predict the future. Sometimes tough decisions must be made to avoid catastrophe. The days of secure jobs and stress free economy ended in the 70's.<!----><!---->
L<!----><!---->
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Edited 1/17/2008 7:07 pm ET by Lawrence
the 80s recessing hit us within 6 months, so severely that literally thousands of ho lost their homes. Most of these people were not loaded to the gill with mortgages. There was no warning either. The government decided to cut the interest rate from 22% to 14% nearly over night. You could not sell a house unless you took the loss (speak pay the bank the money you were committed)which of course you could not afford. All of a sudden you could not sell therefore you could not spend either. The next guy had to close his business because he was stuck with inventory that cost him money and so the domino effect started.
With houseprices so high that you cannot pay them off quickly you are committed to a longterm situation. Whenever the"goalposts" get moved you have no control over it and you loose.
It would be nice if you make so much you could pay off a house in a few years. Most cannot.
Anybody who takes on a 5 or 10 year mortgage enters into a gambling situation and hopes everything goes well. There is absolutely no sure prediction what the next few years will bring
I see your point Semar--
Now, think about it this way. We are heading into a recession.
The US Currency is shedding value. To attract investment what has to happen to interest rates. The central bank is going to lower interest rates in an attempt to nudge the economy back into gear. If it works...cool, we go back to what we were doing.
If it doesn't work...what do you think will happen to interest rates for things like mortgages and lines of credit.... Bingo. 15-22%
Now, assuming that is a possibility if one was sitting on a mortgage of 3-500,000 what should someone do today in an effort to not be succeptable to a housing correction or higher interest rates?
Lock in for 5 years at the present (slightly higher rates).. or sell that anchor around their necks.
History shows us how others got into trouble. Noone is helpless.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
ok, so now I am selling my 500k house, then what? where can I buy a home for say 200k? Move to the Frozen North? If I rent my monthly payments will be about 2k, my equity is slowly eroding. If the recession does not hit, how will I get back to what I had before? Or at least something I can live?
My neighbor sold his house some years ago for 250k moved to Ontario, downsizing. He could never move back into this area. His income there straps him just as much as it did when he was here. If he would have stayed his income would have gone up to meet the extra cost.
It always depends what the financial situation is. I heard some farmers during the depression in the 30s could not come up with the 50$ taxes for their land and lost it.
Of course the best is always not to have any debts at all and keep all savings in gold, but that is not reality.
The system forces you into "society". I strongly believe that is prudent not to live over your "limit" and credit buying is a no no.
"ok, so now I am selling my 500k house, then what?"If prices are dropping, rent. When they hit bottom, buy. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
If I sell now I could get "big" money. In the present buyer's market I could not get any rental. Also in any realestate transaction there are considerable soft costs like realtors fees, legal fees, landtransfer fees. Moving cost, etc. A large amount of my winnings would go out the window. Rent money is lost during all the "down market"
Then when I buy at the bottom, the whole scenario starts again: realtor fees, legal fees, landtransfer fees, maybe some GST (7%)
If the "bottom" market did not loose too much I could even be in a worse position.
It is always the best not to have a mortgage at all. But that is not really realistic
For me it meant we bought small, improved over the years, have a relative small financial burden and hope we can survive.
On a long term outlook I think the world will eventually go into a global recession, not just a national. When that hits the next thing is they will start another big war. That is where the big money is.
Who cares about the small guy
I agree about the soft costs. That is one of the reasons why investors look at "creative" methods of financing: land contracts (contract for deeds), lease options, taking houses "subject to" their existing mortgages. All these techniques work, even in your area, when you find the right situation (motivated seller). Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
in all these situations someone has to pay the bank. When investors buy low they also calculate the risk.
In the 80 recession there were THOUSANDS of homes you could buy for a song but were not able because there was no cash to pay with. All the money that was only on paper disappeared. The bank would sell you a foreclosed house only if they had triple security, maby two other homes they could have a hand on. Or only cash. They had 2800 sqft homes with dbl garage, fenced and landscaped for 75k. Could not give them away because nobody had work and would not qualify. The "inventory" was so great that when people were evacuated from their homes they moved into another empty house just so would not sit with their families on the street. Police came and kicked them out. They waited until the patrolcar was around the corner, then moved into another empty house. The banks had only so much security personnel. It took a while before the ring around started again. People went into supermarkets with their kids and raided the milk and cookie aisles. They just did not care anymore. And of course they drove off gas stations without paying. It was just short of anarchy.
Are we seeing this again? Hard to say- but eventually it will come. Somebody has to pay the piper and NA is sinking further into debts that are not covered.
HEre in NY on long island your looking at billing out 40-60 for mechanic and 17-22 for a helper. some guys gauk at those rates but honestly a professional cant live on less here I have paid out 500/day to some guys and still come out with 73/square on roofing labor and remodeled at 16/foot. I know the price estimates have our area for less. I have tried to survive on less her like 1000 per week and all it is, is a downward spiral. trim is 1-6 per foot hear labor, framing can be 7-20 per foot, sheet rock can be 45-60 hung and taped. I have a varied price cause I do commercial to high end residential some stuff is even t&M plus cost. As for the homeowners don't competitive bid but really take your time to sell the job. I can usually take 5% on something over 20K but I have been hurt by any larger discount. It's nothing personal people these days are brain washed into beilieving their sense of value comes from their ability to purchase. So they will ironically talk you down and then show you all the expensive things they own. It all comes down to they called you and you know what you need to do their work to your quality. if they think that your prices are too high then they probably lack the refinemant that you look for in your clients. Take a minute and see if they are capable of becoming the calaber of people your business was built for. If not make it short and sweet and get back to finding the people that can actually afford your work. Imagine what a shame it would be if lamborgine caterd to peoples' budget the car probably would get a punch list at the end instead of a final payment.
Enjoyed your post, interesting thoughts.
Even better if you knew about paragraphs.
OOps forgot to add, see this is only your 5th post, Welcome. Hazing is in order <G>.
Edited 1/19/2008 4:40 pm ET by junkhound
Heres what you post looks like with paragraphs. I don't know if I broke it up in the right places...but I have a chance at reading it now LOL!"HEre in NY on long island your looking at billing out 40-60 for mechanic and 17-22 for a helper. some guys gauk at those rates but honestly a professional cant live on less here I have paid out 500/day to some guys and still come out with 73/square on roofing labor and remodeled at 16/foot. I know the price estimates have our area for less. I have tried to survive on less her like 1000 per week and all it is, is a downward spiral. trim is 1-6 per foot hear labor, framing can be 7-20 per foot, sheet rock can be 45-60 hung and taped. I have a varied price cause I do commercial to high end residential some stuff is even t&M plus cost. As for the homeowners don't competitive bid but really take your time to sell the job. I can usually take 5% on something over 20K but I have been hurt by any larger discount. It's nothing personal people these days are brain washed into beilieving their sense of value comes from their ability to purchase. So they will ironically talk you down and then show you all the expensive things they own. It all comes down to they called you and you know what you need to do their work to your quality. if they think that your prices are too high then they probably lack the refinemant that you look for in your clients. Take a minute and see if they are capable of becoming the calaber of people your business was built for. If not make it short and sweet and get back to finding the people that can actually afford your work. Imagine what a shame it would be if lamborgine caterd to peoples' budget the car probably would get a punch list at the end instead of a final payment." Bob's next test date: 12/10/07Edited 1/20/2008 7:38 am by Jim_Allen
Edited 1/20/2008 7:40 am by Jim_Allen
cut, your responce was fine for me. i dont worry about paragraphs and or spelling. we figure it out. this AINT flippin english class.
Six, you're apparently kinda new here too, 16 posts and haven't filled in your profile.
Lot of us have old eyes, need some help.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Hey guys thank you for the suggestions. My poor skill in writing is actually a good joke around here. I have recently begun studying and writing a bit in hopes of polishing up.My intent of the post was to see if my numbers where close and to familiarize you guys with them. I have found that it is what it is. Those numbers have worked for me. I have had people take me for less. I helped out a friend and hung crown for 250/day. When I finished a quick spread sheet it indicated that I just did his whole house for about 50 cents a foot, while the other guys bid was $6/foot. I do think the other guy was a bit high for that particular job, but I don't feel like I was competitive I feel like I just hurt the industry by being way to low.Another good one is a builder the other day called me up that he was in a jamb he needed to have a few rooms painted right away. They needed to be primed (cause of the bright old color), then painted a color (witch meant cutting in w/skilled labor)he would give me $300 a room = 1200 total. Another contractor broke it down for me 225/painter, 2 per day per room = 450 labor per room plus materials, overhead & profit on that. He said the other guy probably was figuring 40 in paint/room and everything else was gravy. To check the advice I had a painting contractor look at the job and he bid 3K. Now back to the reason why I have posted. By talking with several people I quickly learned what the right price was instead of agreeing to one that hurts our industry. I appreciate your input and if I throw some numbers out there I hope that you could haze me in that regard.Here are a few other. If I pay someone x, then I have to charge x plus 30% to cover the cost of employing them. To qualify a bid on your run of the mill new construction you can usually double the cost of materials and that is your price at cost. Charge an extra 10% as a cushion against error.
Ya I bought one of those price guides at Home Depot the other day. I always like to see what home owners are likely to read so I know what to say when they question my price. First those things are way off. Even adjusting for area differences they are still way off.The one I picked up allowed only $412.00 for excavation for a 20x30 addition with a full basement. That's more like a $4120.00 charge especially this time of year. Then it said $2000.00 for the foundation it could cost that to just hire a waterproofing contractor to waterproof it. Now this is what we have to deal with cost guides written by writers not contractors for home owners to read. They claim it is a guide for contractors to know what to charge but if you used their prices you would be out of business before your price guide was out of print.I mean you get a guy to bring a $150,000 excavator out to your job site in January dig a foundation hole put down straw so the ground under the footing won;t freeze comeback and put-in footing drains back fill with stone cover with filter fabric then back fill after the water proofing was done and then come back in the spring to finish grade top soil and reseed the lawn for $500.00 they would laugh but the price guide says that it cost under $500.00And don't get me started on DIY shows some are very good like "This Old House" and Holmes on homes others the host are a pretty face no more qualified to give home improvement advice then my mother. Fact is there is more information on the FineHomebuilding web site then many contractors have the one thing not there is what it should cost to do a job right. But just price out the materials and you quickly find that these price guides are full of ####.
Hmmm, I have never seen Holmes give out any estimates. He has fancy equipment that would cost a fortune just to amortize. Also in some video footage the exterior still has greenery, the next segment they are ankledeep in snow.
If I would get subsidised like he does I would have to beat the customers off my door.
IMHO the best is cost plus. This way HO see exactly what materials cost. They can spend all day watching if they want to to see where labor goes. Invoices are written every 2 weeks. They decide how far they want to push the project.
When HO ask for a fixed price I ask them if they would like to be overcharged. Because that is exactly what I would do to protect myself.
The rate I am charging is applicable equally on a fixed price or on a Cost Plus with the difference that I extend the labor time on the fixed contract. I will make sure I am not on the loosing end.
They usually agree to the Cost Plus concept. When you give them a break on materials (they can buy at your wholesale cost) you have a very happy customer.
The labor rate of course has to be reasonable but enough to make a good living.
Sounds like the price guide the insurance adjusters are using to determine the value of the settlement check, lol!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com