Since there may be others qualified to comment on this question who don’t frequent the construction techniques forum, I though posting what had developed there while asking for additional analysis would be beneficial. If I have unknowingly gone against etiquette in some way, tell me and accept my apologies in advance.
I’d like to get some rough overall or segment cost ideas and feature ideas on a 22’4″x22’4″ (@500 square’) residential outbuilding for storage and lapidary/mechanical work on fossils. Construction would be on a slab (5″ thick?) with gravel, moisture barrier and welded wire reinforcement mounting a conventional stick frame with 10′ high walls and a sheeted roof going up to a 15′ gable peak. An installed joist network sufficient to allow later bracing for my installation of a loft would be required. The walls would have two openings framed for a 36″ wide prehung door and a 6’x8′ (type recommendations welcome) door for larger objects. The interior would be left unfinished. Any help on what would be fair contractor’s quotes for this work would be quite helpful in assessing offers which, so far vary quite a bit. I’d pay separately for stuccoing and handle the compostion roofing and electrical on my own.
Any suggestions on things or features to be considered now rather than regretted later are invited. I’d love to avoid retrofitting what can be better done first. Anything on passive ventilation? Passive light pipes/sunlights? Here is an excellent idea on roof insulation thankfully received from a thoughrful contributor:
“Foam and insulation sandwich: Start with the bare rafters. Cover the underside with 1″ foil faced polyurethane. In the rafter bays, lay down insulation (fiberglass or recycled denim) so you leave an inch or so of the top of the rafters exposed. Put down a layer of Tyvec (roll the bottom edge, not the ridge first) and install their plastic spacers which should push the Tyvek down to where the top of the insulation layer is. On the top of the rafters, place a 1″ foil faced polyurethane layer, then put the 7/16″ sheathing on top of that. Fasten the sheathing with 3″ screws to get deep enough into the rafter.”
Other contributions and ideas are invited. And the fossils are on me.
Regards,
Ed
Replies
Apologies accepted.
It's not really a big deal when you post twice, just makes it harder for those who are interested to keep up with what's been said.
BT is all one big forum and everybody sees all the threads in every section.
Well, except the Tavern, ya gotta ask to see that. Sorta keeps those ruffians distant from us genteeels.
SamT
I'm glad I didn't offend any posting commandments.
Certain of the ideas as to physical features to consider incorporating were excellent. And if I can get any more to consider by this separate posting, great,
But money--or the shortness thereof--will make me pass on some of them. Now, I'm really interested in getting a guage on a fair price for the whole undertaking. I've got some idea of what the competitive cost on the slab should be but I'd welcome others and remain interested in what a fair framing cost price is. Beyond that, I do have a handle on the roofing, stucco and electrical aspects. The roofing and electrical I can do and in stucco, I have a reliable contractor with a good price whom nobody, nobody, has an unkind thing to say about.
After barging throught the net, I've yet to find a forum in this area with a similar activity level. But...are there any other places I would be advised to post this question or research it??? All leads are appreciated.
Thanks again.
Ed
I'l bid $999,949.21.
Oh, come on Pete! Don't let him rip you off Ed, the standard price on something like this is 99,500! ;)-T
But this is So Cal. Everything is 10 times more there.
Ask Sancho.
Ed
Here's why this won't get answered or answered with a smart aleck comment..
there are simply too many varables.
your site for example. easy access or limited..Parking, access to suppliers,, local labor pool, your local inspectors how do they determine what is proper and what should be done. two communities right next to one another could have dramatically differant costs simply because of interpitation of building rules..
Dozens of other facters can change costs. IF Someone were to tell you their costs and all the bids you recieve were dramatically higher does that mean that you are being cheated? or does that mean that locally things would be differant? There are even books that give construction costs guildlines.. spelling out just about every variable they would require several hours to work thru yourself and yet bids will differ to a surprising degree from that.
I understand your frustration.. heck everything else is available on the internet.. click click and there's your answer..
Sorry construction just doesn't work that way..
It's so frustrating that in the end I simply did it myself.. I trusted my own abilitites more than I could trust others to give me fair bids.. That's really sort of funny since while I've sold in construction for 17 years I almost never did any sort of construction work myself.
I'm glad I did. I'm nearing the finish line on my home and I should finish up saving about 3/4 of what pros wanted to do it for. The bad part about it, I know where all the mistakes are.. There's something blissfull about simply writting a check and not knowing. (they exists, trust me it's just that the pros won't point them out to you)
If you'd like to see what I'm doing go to 85891.1
Frenchy:
Merci for the comment, which I understand. In an effort to attract some more serious input on the cost aspect of this question, the site is in the South Bay of LA and the planning people seem pretty mellow. The property is flat, with bottom-land, silty soil for a substrate. Access won't be a problem. I agree with you that any serious thinking people who kindly give me the benefit of their thoughts won't offer me a perfect point of comparison with reality. That's life. But I appreciate any help and even imperfect insights are that. Frankly, I enjoy helping folk with what little I know myself and have met some dandy people locally and across the net via those kind of interchanges. The test of reciprocity finds good people for you fast. And what's the famous movie line, "We depend on the kindness of strangers".
If people need further details to offer qualified remarks, I'll do what I can to supply them. I think if I buy lunch for some unknown friends at a commercial lumber yard and a ready-mix plant, that will give me a survey of some ideas and figures on the framing and slab.
I liked the picture of your effort. It had a real Gothic Cathederal feel to it. Neat. Some of the work on my building will be mine but I can't take a pill that will give me a solid practical education in the two elements of the project mentioned and I really don't have the time to do this thing myself before the winter intrudes.
Again, I liked your place. I don't know whether it is practical but the inside view made me think of a stained-glass window, weather vane or aeolian harp somewhere in association with the structure. Come to think of it--in a near-lost memory of Providence, R.I.--maybe a keen porthole right under the apex of the eave would make for a stylish statement.
Your time is appreciated.
Ed
Ed,
No practical experiance prior to attempting this. I just bought good tools and equipment and they made the work nice and easy.. when you are finished sell the tools on E bay for about half of what you paid for and it will be cheaper than renting. (or buy good used tools and resell them and have an even lower cost)
I suspect if you purchased the tools and spent an day or too watching the pros do it, you'd feel comfortable tackleing it yourself.. find a young guy who needs work to help you and you'd be amazed at how much you can save.
I'm 59 terribly fat and have had a mostly sedentary job all my life. Nails guns and miter saws make even real clutches like me do decent work quickly.
My sister framed all of her house and she's got even less experiance than I do. You'd be proud of her,, Tight joints, correct compound angles etc.. she just figured things out as she went..
Frenchy:
Sounds good except the sands of time and other concerns give reasons to get it done pronto. I do have a Paslode cordless nailer which is very convenient. But I should have volunteered for Habitat for Humanity for good reasons when now I have selfish reasons of re-education to do so. But I really like your work . Not everyone is so successfully intuitive a craftsman.
With the fossil work and rock breaking, I'm in crack shape but there's really no reasonable basis now to think my ignorance will push me through this project at an acceptable speed nor have my first results make building inspectors blush. Keep up the good work and post more of those inspiring photos.
Ed
Sure Ed,
What you say is valid,.... for you.. No amount of pursuasion should make you do something that you simply don't want to. I wanted to do this, I certainly didn't know that I could but I also knew that if I never attempted to do it I would never know..
As for your inability to do the job, frankly I honestly doubt you'd do less than an excellant job if you were to attempt it.. maybe it seems daunting because there is so much that you don't know but if you take a little bite at a time you'll be surprised at suddenly you're looking at it finished and grinning..
The feeling of achievement is awsome plus it will convince you to atempt something even more ambitious in the future..
That feeling of power/confidense get's slightly undermined because you'll look at it witha critical eye knowing where all the mistakes are.. to beat that spend a week or two with pro-builders and watch them make mistakes as well.. Then suddenly it dawns on you just how capable you were and your chest expands!
As for learning how at a habitat for humanity or getting some schooling, you really don't need that stop by a job site similar to yours with some coffee and rolls and ask if you can stand and watch for a day or so.. `That should give you everything you need to know.. That's the sum total of my education..
Frenchy:
I'm in accord with you as far as applauding self-education. There is even a useful, if a tad fancy word saluting the concept--autodidact or self-teacher. It's just that right now, I do have two other manual projects under steam which are sponging up the hours and it would be reckless and ruinous for me to think I could manage this other project, look back with satisfaction and still meet all deadlines.
I did find a retired electrician who will fly by and give me directions on converting the antique 2-fuse service entrance I have into a modern 200 amp service entrance panel hookup which will be inset in the wall and stuccoed over when the house is shortly refinished. That was a lucky connection and I will make certain my guru feels my gratitude. From your handle I would think you're of French extraction. I ran across an interesting list the other day of French words and phrases either used in English in a completely different way than they are in France or existent only in English. if that interests you, I could find a link.
Thanks.
Ed
Thanks Ed.
As far as I know I'm about 99% German somebody back in history must of snuck over from Germany and stole the name.. Dad had a research firm look up the family tree and they sent us that along with the family coat of arms, sure enough there is a plucked chicken in it.. so dad's proudly shown our family coat of arms including the plucked chicken whenever he can..
I took french in high school, college and even took some post grad courses.. it stuck just about as well as all the electronic formulas I was taught. (another words not at all)
I understand about time limits and other priorities so don't feel bad. Good luck on finding a decent contractor who will do the job in a timely manner at a reasonable cost.. my only advice is to look extremely carefully at the low bid, seldom does it represent a good value.
Interesting background.
Your low bid comment brings up a good story. Like you I share a general...wondering...about what else comes with a low bid. But the guy who bid the house stucco on a project was lower than the median price by 50% and lower than the high price by 300%. And he returned calls, showed up when he said he would and seemed personable and smart. "Too good to be...." No. When I called stucco suppliers to ask about the durability of colors, they asked where I was and said "Then call Mr. X. His customers love him and so will you." Not one stucco supplier pulled me into that without me first inquiring about applicators but two of them did it. Turned out he was a good as they said and a deal in the bargain. You never know. But it was nice getting enough volunteer references that you didn't feel like you had to ask for any more.
Thank you for your help on the thread.
Ed