Has anyone had any good experiences with design/estimating software for the small builder/remodeler that actually is easy enough to use?
Edited 11/4/2004 7:57 am ET by flynn
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Edited 11/4/2004 7:57 am ET by flynn
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Not me but I was hoping some people here might offer some suggestions. I've used all sorts of programs and yesterday I bought a Punch! product with the home estimator, The estimator is sh-t. I've tried EZ estimator and that is helpful sometimes but often leaves me short on materials. I even have quickbooks premier contractor edition and I feel thats awkward. I still do my estimates with a pen and many pieces of paper computer aided but thats about it.
I've decided I'm willing to spend some bucks. If an estimator/design program saves me a couple of hours a month or in anyway makes estimating easier it would pay for itself.
So if anybody has suggestions...
Edited 11/10/2004 7:42 am ET by TMO
After spending major bucks I finally spent some money in the right place for just this stuff. I took a course in Excell Spreadsheets and can custom design what I need for that job.
Hammer, you may have just hit the nail one the head. Excel works with my Quickbooks(or so the quickbooks claims). I had given it some thought.
What about drawings and material orders, can you design spread sheets that give you that info?
I use it mostly for take off and figuring the amount of materials needed. I can then input cost per units (2 x 4 x 8 @ 2.89) and reach a pretty good idea of what I need. Things that have tripped me up in the past.
Corners, make sure you add corners into the take off. I use a three-stud corner and add this into the total number of corners
Windows cripples I used to try and find short cripples from knee walls and stuff. I’m finding that it just better to count the cripples as studs as we find places to use the “waste†in blocking.
The biggest is selling upgrades in roofing by showing the difference in cost comparing 7/16 versus 5/8 in roof decking. A few hundred dollars in decking cost in the total picture is really spare change in the total cost of materials
Anybody use timberline or hometech?
I couldn't find a price for timberline but it was reccomended to me by another contractor.
To get Timberline up and running, figure on about $3k for software, and countless hours of your time to learn the program, build a database, get it configured, and be productive with it. It's not a "first-timer" system.
Hometech is just the opposite- it gives you little flexibility, and makes it very difficult to track actual vs estimated (no listing of labor hours- just total labor $$). Some guys love it, and swear they do well with it's pricing, but I can't work that way- I've got to know where the #'s come from, and be able to compare my actuals to the estimate.
Stick with Excel. I've estimated $450 million projects with it, so it can do anything you need. If you're looking at buying a solution rather than building one, check out Jerry Hayes' program over at http://www.paradigm-360.com
Bob
Good rule of thumb that works well for stud takeoff is to allow one stud per lineal foot of wall even though they are specified at 16" centres. Corners, cripples, jacks and blocking eat up all those extra studs. If studs are to be at 12" o/c, then count 1.3 studs per foot of wall, and so on.
I use Excel for materials and labour, but only for adding the takeoff numbers together. Haven't bothered to go so far as formulas such as the one above. Hmm, could be an interesting project.
WallyLignum est bonum.
Design and estimating, why can't it go together?
I use the one stud per linear foot method already.
Been to the paradigm 360 site but I'm I haven't really figured out what's being offered and for how much money. As an analogy, I want to buy a hammer even if its expensive not hire a carpenter. That in a sense was the problem with Timberline as well.
So if we split up the request, What design software do you use and what estimating software do you use?
I'm a carpenter rather than a designer, and the work I estimate is small scale stuff, nothing over 20K at this point. Also these are side jobs I do on weekends as I work full time for a commercial contractor. So my time could be considered 'free' as I am not really running a business. Of course I like to be more efficient each time I do something, hence moving to spreadsheeting to handle pricing as it is adjusted. But for takeoff I just do it manually, stick by stick.
But... it wouldn't be that hard to write some formulae that would calculate footing form materials, foundation forms, wall plates, stud counts, subfloor, wall sheathing, roof sheathing, roof materials etc. All you need is total floor area, building perimeter, wall height and roof pitch to get those numbers.
Lignum est bonum.
How long does it take you to write up the estimate? I time tracked a $55000 addition estimate I just did and it took me about 12 hours. That includes jobsite meetings with the excavator and the mason.
It didn't need a designer persay but it would've been nice to offer some pretty pictures as part of the sales package.
Edited 11/13/2004 5:02 pm ET by TMO
for a custom house , i can easily spend 100 hours.. which is why i charge for the Proposal
as for estimating software.. i use GC Works
which is now BuildWorks
http://www.synapsesoftware.com/
and for design i use
Chief Architect
http://www.chiefarchitect.com/Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike,
Do you charge by the hour or do you have a flat fee? I ran into a situation this year where I couldn't do any estimates for a few months because I couldn't justify the expense. Had I been charging something it would have been easier to hire somebody to maintain production while I pushed the paper.
I'm figuring decent software would speed up the processof producing estimates.
Tim
i charge a flat fee.. $1K.... $2K... $3K.. depending on what i think it's going to take..
the best thing about it is that if you can get the Proposal Preparation fee, you have probably got the job too..
i don't always get my fee, but on the ones i do, i've always gotten the job following.Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I like your style.
I probably would offer to bid a job if someone else provides a complete bid request package. Do you ever give them that choice when they won't pay your bid prep fee?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
my subs work with me on the bid package... and there is no bid package unless i get paid to produce one..and i use the same subs 90% of the time.. until i get the feeling that someone forgot the KY jelly
for most of our work.. i either get paid to prepare a Proposal or we just say thanks for calling us, let us know if there is anything you would like us to do ( and they understand that we work for money )
everytime i vary from this.. i wind up in a competitve bid situation and we never ( hardly ever ) wind the job..... IE : sometimes i THINK we're the only bidder, so "what , me worry?"... turns out the crafty bastid had two or three others that i didn't know about.. so.. another waste of time
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Latest update. I just bought a new computer with excel xp etc. My old computer only had microsoft works which had a spreadsheet program but not excel.
I see I forgot to ask my question...
Chief Architect, worth the money?
absolutely...as long as you are willing to devote the time to learning how to use it..
other wise it becomes a $1000 box on your shelf
i've used Chief since Vs. 5 ( 1997 ) now on vs. 9.5... vs. 10.0 will be out in the springMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Great discussion. I've thrown a lot of wasted money at software, looking for a good design/estimating tool, now its back to graph paper and guestimates. Cheaper, quicker, better.
I agree with Mike, no proposals w/o payment
FWIW
There are a lot of changes occurring in the Industry and clients are more information
Savvy.
Not all deign software is the same, some are strong in particular areas and weaker in
others,I prefer an "all round program" that i can work with and develop . And
basically It depends on what you want.I have used most programs and we have
developed the processes and skills around vectorworks.
We now sketch and prelim.estimate at the initial stages.Im in control of the process ,
in the way that I want to work,not the client nor the software program. We always
get paid when we start putting the projects together. We ask for initially 2% of the
project cost . We estimate ,schedule and analysis all projects within the same
program . We still use the Rough sketches and guestimates initially, AS the
project Develops so does the design and quote.Its a bit more complex than
this ,but we have taken our work and clients to the next level higher ,beyond Quick
3D presentation only. We build Med/large Homes,and control-outsource most of
the work now,its more to do with obtaining Synergy ,Scales of economy, mass
production, PresentingData/Marketing.
Good luck in which ever software you choose.
Chris.... a lot of people use VectorWorks..
including a friend who has 20 architects on staff..
Piffen uses SoftPlan..
I use Chief...
my thinking is that VW is able to be worked on by multiple designers at different workstations.. IE: offices that have teams doing the designwork..
Chief is not well suited to that..
but Chief will generate materials lists.. and do spreadsheets.. i don't use those functions. because of the olde "GIGO"
i don't always design in Chief so it is incorporating the exact matls that we will be using..i am more concerned in getting construction drawings out the door..
since i wear too many hats.. i take short cuts ..
if i were better organized or had a designer on staff we would incorporate all of the things you are doing.. and Chief would do it ... easily..
from what i understand of SoftPlan.. it also will do those things..
so ... as far as I know.. VW's main strength is the ability to handle multiple designers working simultaneously on a project..
Chief will also generate 3-d and editable symbols ( like a "custom molding ")
to my way of thinking .. the big three of design /build cad are VW, Chief, and Softplan..
the architectural offices tend to stay with Autocad, and one or two others whose name escapes me at the moment..
BTW.. Nick Pitz in NJ, uses VW.. he's was published in FHB a couple years ago..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Has anyone used or know anything about Master Builder from Intuit? Intuit is the vendor who sells Quickbooks and TurboTax - I think.
The idea would be to initially just use it for materials and cost estimation, and perhaps to do some scheduling management, etc, I think it can do a lot more though... The application would be new custom home construction, anywhere from $100k up to $2 mil, but mostly in the $400k to $800k range.
Thanks, Matt
I love CA, not cheap, not all that easy to learn (and I'm still a neophyte) but it rocks...
TMO - "Been to the paradigm 360 site but I'm I haven't really figured out what's being offered and for how much money. As an analogy, I want to buy a hammer even if its expensive not hire a carpenter. That in a sense was the problem with Timberline as well."
TMO, I just spotted Bob's post here referring to my site and your comments and I'm not sure what you mean or are getting at. While the link Bob posted here was to the Paradigm-360 homepage I think the pricing information along with how to purchase a license is incredibly clear on the actual product page; 360-Estimating, you just have to scroll down the page. The current programs there were developed in FileMaker 5.5/6 and are currently $215 to $245 depending on which edition the user needs. That pricing however is about to change since I almost ready to release new versions of the software built using the more powerful FileMaker 7. If you'd like to see screenshot previews of the coming new versions click this link: 360 Contractors Office Preview. The new pricing structure will reflect that the new software will be available in different modules so the user only needs to purchase what they want and or need and there will be different levels if licenses available too. Single User, Multiple User, and a Open Source editions so the user can make their own custom modifications to the programs to suit their own operations and working styles if they so choose.
I didn't put any real product information regarding the estimating software on the homepage that Bob linked too because developing software is not the only thing we do. We provide a bunch of other IT and Management Consulting Services to builders and remodelers too.
With respect to your question "So if we split up the request, What design software do you use and what estimating software do you use?" In my contracting company's operation for design we primarily use tools such as Sketchup for 3D design, VectorWorks for CAD, and Photoshop for producing or modifying illustrations. Just about every other company function from CRM to Estimating and Job Control we do in FileMaker based applications that I developed although for displaying project management schedules as Gantt charts we use FastTrack Schedule 8 in concert with my own FileMaker based project management tools and systems. While my FileMaker applications are cross platform and work on both Mac and Windows on the Mac my scheduling application (which isn't publicly available yet) in addition to working with FastTarck also works with the Mac OS's iCal application too to generate calendars that can then be shared and subscribed to publicly using either the .Mac service or PHPIcalendar.
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ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
Hey Jerrald,
I didn't get past the first link with respect to searching your site for estimating software. I figured your emphasis was on project management assistance which I'm not looking for at this time.
Thanks for the explaination. You are correct when you say it is easy to find under the software heading and the price is clearly there at the bottom of the page. I will be taking a look at it as it seems to be a very reasonable price.
Tim
TMO- "Hey Jerrald, I didn't get past the first link with respect to searching your site for estimating software. I figured your emphasis was on project management assistance which I'm not looking for at this time."
That's actually very good to hear that you figured the "emphasis was on project management assistance" because that is actually just what I really wanted to emphasize there. In talking with my brother the other day with the new stuff we have coming we thought it would be a better idea to split off software into its own product group with it's own web site and will probably do that sometime in the very near future. In addition to the FileMaker 7 based stuff we have coming we also have a Cold Fusion based Enterprise Portal system for contractors coming too.
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ParadigmProjects.com | Paradigm-360.com | Mac4Construction.com
flynn... which do you want?
design ?
or estimating ?
none of them are easy to use..
but some of them are worth learning.. since they will be your desktop tool box for the next 30 years or so..depending on where you are in your career
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"flynn... which do you want? design ? or estimating ?"
Geez Mike- ya mean he can't get both together? tough crowd....lol.
Bob
I also use and recommend vectorworks VW ,It has an inbuilt speadsheet/database,
2D and 3D drawing capabilities, you can extract drawing and model data quite easily
and your not just limited to drawing home plans.
You can also design and Model woodworking projects, Get a demo.
Hey mike, VW allows you to develope your own PIO's (Plug in objects]
Cheers
Edited 11/20/2004 10:21 am ET by Chris Manus
Flynn,
I was in same boat as you.
I ended up settling on Remodel Cost Estimator ( it works off of Excel spreadsheet) and Chief Architect for design.
There is a learning curve for both, but they are easier than most.
Dan