I am now a “surface dweller”. I sold my gyrocopter and am awaiting shipment of a new kit. It is going to be bigger..more power….and I cant wait to start riveting some aluminum. Move over stairs….<G>
Here are some pictures of what I will be building. The flying picture is me in the left seat acting like I can fly it.
Stan
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Replies
Was the last one a two-seater? Does it require a pilots license? If you're building from a kit, does that make it an experimental plane?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie: The other one was a two seater. It does require a pilots license and one for gyropters as well to take passengers. This will be flying as experimental.
Stan
Man you have brass ones.
I'll live in the stuff I build any day..... but fly it? You're a better man than I! ;)
Congratulations on the new toy! Enjoy it, you've had enough bad luck lately... you deserve some good stuff.
dieselpig: Gyrocopters are a very safe machine to fly. The rotor is not powered at all....so does not need the engine running. The engine quits...you just land like a crow. I have had 18 real engine outs...but in other machines that had junk engines. The gyro I have been flyign has 230 hours in it without any trouble.
I do on occasion shut the engine off and do dead stick landings.
Stan
Gyrocopters are a very safe machine to fly.
I'm sure you are correct, assuming two very important variables are not present:
1. I did not build said gyrocopter myself.
2. I am not flying said gyrocopter.
Judging by pictures of both your work and your hobby... I have no doubt you have the attention for detail required to build and fly your own machine. I'm thinking I might not, though!
Must be both eerie and peaceful at the same time up there, with the engine cut. That's gotta be akin to a religious experience.
"The rotor is not powered at all....so does not need the engine running."
What is the engine for then? The rotor provides lift, but what drives the craft forward?
The engine has a prop on it pushing the gyro. The rotor just windmills. Since there is no thrust to the rotor....there is no need of a tail rotor to counteract that torque.
This all translates into a very simple rotorcraft that is easy to fly and maintain.....and affordable.
Stan
Now I see it. Duh.
Supposedly a regular helicopter can glide to a landing if the motor quits. Does it act like a gyrocopter then?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Fast Eddie: Yes...a regular helicopter is in autorotation when the power is removed. However....the timing of when to apply collective...and many other parameters makes them much trickier to land with a dead engine.
A gyrocopter has no collective and basically you just keep you airspeed in a certain range...and glide down...flaring at the end with a 0 to 5 mph touch down speed. Very safe and there is nothing "crazy" about it. Whats crazy is the lack of knowledge amongst non flyers about how these things work. <G>
Stan
What is collective? Sounds like a farm in Siberia.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie: Collective is changing the pitch in all the rotor blades at the same time and amount...collectively...and thus the term "collective."
Stan
Stan: The "fuselage" intrigues me. Is it molded plastic, fiberglass, kevlar, aluminium (Note the English spelling) ? Or do you have to form it up, also? Other than that component, looks like a piece of cake, conceptually, to put toghther. Sorta like a big flying RC model.Enjoy! DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Don: The cabin is fiberglass.
changing the pitch in all the rotor blades at the same time and amount
So here's a semi-serious, semi-smart alec question ... why would you want to, or would it be possible to, change the pitch of only one blade?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
semi-serious, semi-smart alec question ... why would you want to, or would it be possible to, change the pitch of only one blade?
Good question....
That, my friend is called a helicopter. That's how they maneuver, changing pitch at a particular time in the rotor "sweep".
A chopper's rotors can all change pitch with one input: collective. To go up in altitude, the pilot would input more collective pitch. The word comes from all rotors changing pitch at once . . . i.e., collectively.
Cyclic pitch change is when a rotor changes pitch depending on its cycle in rotation. The really cool part of chopper mechanics is the cyclic plate part of the rotor assembly that can impart pitch change to each blade depending on its position in the cycle.
For example, with the input given to tilt forward, each blade would increase its pitch as it moves through the rearward quadrant of rotation.
Some say that the steady hover in chopper flying is one of the most challenging pieces in piloting any aircraft. I've heard it likened to balancing while standing atop a bowling ball, with that ball balancing atop another one.
A gyrocopter is a prop-driven craft with a motion-driven rotor that gives it wonderful stability through the mechanics of gyroscopic action.
Eddie and others: Let me briefly explain what a gyrcopter can do. It can slow fly down to 25 mph and hold altitude. This is depending on make model...and gross weight.
A gyro can be flown clear down to 0 mph with full control. It will be in a vertical descent...but a fully controlled one. I do them all the time. Come up to my landing spot extra high....do a vertical descent down to 200 feet....then start picking up airspeed so I can flare just above the ground and land like a crow. Gyrocopters can fly over 100 mph. I have flown mine 110...and have been in one that can fly 130 mph.
Gyros are not as efficient as a fixed wing...but we are talking about a totally different kind of flying here. You can do spins while in a vertical descent....and can even fly backwards while descending.
Winds are seldom even an issue in a gyrocopter. I have flown many times in 30 plus winds...and it actually is safer. You can land so easy.
Fixed wing pilots are always asking me how rough the air is. My usual reply is that that there is almost never a rough day for a gyrocopter. You just have to fly one to experience it. The rotor has so much momentum and it also is chopping up the turbulence...that you do not get bounced around in mid day thermals. Maybe a slight rock back and forth occasionally.
I feel so fortunate to have watched "The Road Warrior" back in 1985. My life has never been the same since. I owned one two months later...and have been flying one since.
I used to fly very touchy engines and have 18 full engine outs logged. Never a scratch to me or my machine. The ones I fly now have Subaru car engines and are very dependable. Like I said...I would take 50 engine outs in a gyro versus one in a fixed wing. Its the difference in landing 0-5 mph. versus 60 or so.
Stan
Edited 8/30/2005 9:32 pm ET by StanFoster
Edited 8/30/2005 9:33 pm ET by StanFoster
Amazing capabilities, esp. for exploring and loitering.
Sounds like it's much more fun than flying a Cessna. With a Cessna, you're going too fast to see much detail when flying low, and it feels much too slow when flying high and trying to get somewhere.
When I was much younger I was just dying to fly a (Bensen) gyrocopter. Never had the chance. Now you've picked up my interest again. I'm a bit more "rickety" now and safety has become quite important in my mind. If wind isn't an issue, and engine outs aren't an issue I'm wondering...has anyone ever accidentally crashed one? Under what circumstances?
jdary: Sure.....several incidents have occured resulting in death. Good training and the new centerline thrust models will eleviate most of these problems. PIO...pilot induced oscillation is one. These new designs all but eliminate this and one has to be really ham fisted at the controls.
Some people just are not relaxed while flying..and that is the biggest difference no matter what you are in.
Stan
Stan,
So what are you building?
Just curious what one of those two place gyro's weighs ie. does it fit into the new "Sport Pilot" category. I've had an interest in flying one for awhile.
I started flying this Summer and currently have 18 hours in a C-172, but am worried about passing the 3rd class medical (which I have to take real soon), but am set for 8 years if I opt to switch to the Sport Pilot (just need a drivers licence) IF I don't fail the 3rd class prior.
Basically right now, I have to choose If I stick to Private or change to Sport..
BTW, I notice it looks like you have the same David Clark NCT headset that I do. cool....
Jon
Edited 8/29/2005 2:31 pm ET by WorkshopJon
Edited 8/29/2005 2:39 pm ET by WorkshopJon
Jon: This gyro will weigh around 900 pounds. It is not Sport pilot eligible without falsely declaring the weight on it.
Stan
"Jon: This gyro will weigh around 900 pounds. It is not Sport pilot eligible without falsely declaring the weight on it."
Stan,
Maybe I'm interpreting the rules incorrectly, but what I believe would be applicable states:
(cut and paste from FAA web site)
"Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or
powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the
following:
(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than––
(i) 660 pounds (300 kilograms) for lighter-than-air aircraft;
(ii) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for
operation on water; or
(iii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for
operation on water.
(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum
continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard
atmospheric conditions at sea level.
(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than
120 knots CAS for a glider.
(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed
without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots
CAS at the aircraft’s maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical
center of gravity.
(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons,
including the pilot.
(6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered.
(7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft
other than a powered glider.
(8) A fixed or autofeathering propeller system if a powered
glider.
(9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if
a gyroplane.
(10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin.
(11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for
operation on water or a glider.
(12) Fixed or repositionable landing gear, or a hull, for an
aircraft intended for operation on water.
(13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider.
*
So to me it seems like your gyro would fall into the catagory. Any reasons why you think it might not?
Jon
Edited 8/30/2005 8:46 am ET by WorkshopJon
Jon: Sorry...let me clarify myself. I was looking at it from my perspective...hauling a passenger. You are absolutely correct in that it would fall under sport pilot if so licensed. Sole flight...no problem. passenger along....big problem. If it weighs 900 empty....it cant be more than 1320 pounds gross. Anyway...I get in and it now weighs 1120 pounds. A passenter gets in......say 180 pounds....now you are at 1300 pounds. Still no fuel figured either. In my case....I want to haul my 270 pound son.....now I am weigh over the weight limit and no fuel either.
But...solo flight....very feasible. Of course you could take a passenger and over gross...with slim chance of getting caught...but I dont want to rish my pilots license.
However....should I lose my third class medical...heart condition or whatever....then I would be grounded the way I am now. There are advantages both ways.
Jon...again....sorry I wasnt clear enough at first.
Stan
Edited 8/30/2005 8:49 pm ET by StanFoster
Edited 8/31/2005 7:10 am ET by StanFoster
hey ...
just looked at that pic ...
Stop Smiling!
bet ya still are.
How about a nice little photo eassay?
and ... when can I schedule the first ride?
Jeff
Stan ... bet U can understand this one ... wife's Dad stopped by last weekend. Spent a week in Fla with his girlfriends kids ... one daughter wanted to and went skydiving. They said how they'd never even think about it ... Cath told them how I aways wanted to try it. They said I was nuts ... I told the story about my first flight instructor ... teaching me a bit ... and showing me more ... of the aerobatic capabilities of a utility class C 152.
I said ... if I did all that strapped to the seat of a 152 ... with NO parachute ...
then actually jumping out of a plane with all the equipment designed for said purpose ... would be nothing!
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff: It is very relaxing flying a gyrocopter...and it is very hard to not smile while doing so. It is a freakin rush.....especially chasing wild boar and gators in Florida in one.
I know...I know....I am not right....<G>
Stan
"especially chasing wild boar and gators in Florida in one."
someone's gotta chase them ... they need exercise too!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Stan,
<!----><!----><!---->
You are crazy! Gyrocopters are crazy! Experimental Pilots, in general, are a crazy bunch. Ultralight pilots too. That’s what I flew back in the early to mid ‘80s. I started out with swing seats and finished in heavier 3-axis control types. I practiced dead sticks every day. I chased bob cats, cyotes, deer, and jackrabitts, what a rush!
<!----><!---->
Does that thing have a recovery system on it? Parachute. It’s been so long since I played with anything that flies that I’m not in the know about what’s going on with things like that anymore. I have noticed the popularity of the Para planes here. I wouldn’t get in one of those things for nothing. I think of them as “Sky Slugsâ€. Those guys have no self-respect. Lol.
<!----><!---->
Now that you have peeked the interest of these BT forum surfers you’ll have to fill in the gaps, the principals of auto rotation and pilot requirements, etc; and probably a few more questions that I wouldn’t even think of.
<!----><!---->
I still remember the guy who taught me to fly ultralights saying that you know your going fast enough to have lift if you can feel the wind on your face. They did not have two seated Ultra light aircraft when I learned to fly. A lot of guys didn’t successfully complete their first solo because they would get “Land lubber’s syndrome†and forget everything they were taught as soon as they left the ground. Most of the time no one got hurt, just a few bruised egos and bent down tubes.
<!----><!---->
Have fun with the gyro and this thread too. Mr J
Edited 8/28/2005 11:37 am ET by MrJalapeno
Mr. J--- You have your right to call me crazy...I will keep thoughts to myself.
Edited 8/28/2005 8:12 pm ET by StanFoster
Stan Foster,
<!----><!----><!---->
I think you took my “crazy†comment to heart. I really meant in a lighthearted kidding sense. I don’t think that gyro pilots are any crazier, or smarter, or dumber, than any other light aircraft pilot. It’s a fun sport and I enjoyed my time in the ultralite click of flying.
<!----><!---->
I have always found Gyros fascinating.
<!----><!---->
I remember that the gyro pilots at the EAA meets would hang together and how much they hated the “crazy†word. If you wanted to have a little fun with them you could say something about how crazy they were and watch the fur fly. It got to be a joke with a lot of the other pilots how sensitive the gyro pilots were. I guess they still are. I meant you no dis and I apologize.
<!----><!---->
I will join this discussion if you think I might have something to offer. If you would rather see me stay away then I shall. It’s your call.
<!----><!---->
I wish you good luck with all your flying adventures.
<!----><!---->
What’s a Jesus bolt?
<!----><!---->
Mr. J
Mr. J: Ok...I guess I took you seriously....sorry. Its hard to communicate here sometimes. I will look inside myself and try to rewire my reaction circuitry...<G>.....
A "Jesus" bolt is the 3/8 inch diameter bolt that holds the rotor on. Yes....its only a 3/8 bolt. Next to impossible to have one break....however...if one does.......J-E-S-U-S......may be what is uttered....as that is whom you hope to see next.
Mr. J.....please keep commenting....
Stan
Edited 9/1/2005 7:23 am ET by StanFoster
I will post progress pictures of my gyro. I will try to have a stairs in the background so as to keep it palatable to the wood workers. <G>.
Not much wood on the gyro except for some internal spacing blocks inside the mast.
The gyrocopter is coming in next week...at least part of it. This project will take me at least until spring...at least. I still have to build stairs and the endless "honey do" list.
Stan
Just one 3/8 bolt to hold it on? It must be a special kind of bolt that has a lot of stress points before it breaks? I had been machining some government parts for the air force jets and they wanted that kind of material that wouldn't shatter or break at a very high heat that those jets put out. Man, those material are hard to machine and I didn't really like doing it.
I am now a "surface dweller". I sold my gyrocopter and am awaiting shipment of a new kit. It is going to be bigger..more power....and I cant wait to start riveting some aluminum.
Stan, are you one of those people who have as much fun assembling stuff as playing with it? I'm only about a 40-60 person (not quite as much fun building as playing with it later), so I'd probably try to work on the new kit prior to selling the 'old' one.
But then I suppose if you were using the $$ from the sale to pay for the new one, you wouldn't have much choice. Did you say the old one had about a 600lbs-ish load capacity? What is a ballpark number on a fully assembled one with 200 hours on it?
New one looks like it sits up higher, but the cabin doesn't look any bigger. Bigger engine and range? Is that going to be a 1000 hour project ?
Between the stairs and the new gyro, it sounds like if your wife wants to see you she is going to have to come by the shop :)
jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
Stan, you might as well start a new photo thread when that new kit arrives.
Give us the "from crate to sky" process in pics and words. =)
There used to be a channel called, "Discovery Wings" that had a couple shows where people assembled planes, helecopters, etc. Kind of a neat looking hobby, but seemed like it required a lot of specialized tools (and space)
jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
Edited 8/29/2005 11:58 am ET by JohnT8
John: I really would rather fly one...but building your own machine really is a nice marriage. Also I am able to do the annual on it myself.
My other one would haul my 220 pound butt...and my sons 270 pound butt....full fuel .....23 gallons....and still fly fine in 85 degree weather.
The new one has a much bigger cabin....4 inches wider....6 inches longer...and four inches higher. Much better and easier visibility.
The engine will be 160 horse instead of 130.
The thrustline is center line thrust making this about one of the safest aircraft to fly.
I would take 50 engine outs in a gyrocopter versus one in a fixed wing.
Gyrocopters have got to be the LEAST understood of all aircraft. They are just way too cool to explain. You just have to get in one and see how nice it is to fly....then slow up to almost zero,...or even slow clear up to zero and descend. It makes an excellent observation platform.
Edited 8/29/2005 10:27 pm ET by StanFoster
some more views of a SparrowHawk. The first picture is my friend on the left and myself in Florida this last April.
A few more questions for you Stan. Thanks for the previous answers.
How long is a take-off run in a Gyro compared to a small Cessna, given the same conditions?
How fast does the Gyro need to go before the overhead rotor starts spinning and generating some lift?
I think I see a collective control, so I imagine you dial in more rotor angle of attack as your runway speed increases....? That vertical tail has a lot of area for such a small craft...does that help counter rotor-induced yaw?
Pierre1: The take off roll is more like an airplane. If you pre-rotate to 200 rpm...then you can apply full power. Otherwise you kind of milk the power in as the rotor speed builds.
You start spinning the rotor while standing still.
There is no torque to the rotor in flight..so the tail just keeps the cabin straight.
There is no collective. Just cyclic. These things do almost what a helicopter can without all the expensive parts.
Stan
How do you spin the rotor on the ground? I thought it spun as a result of the airflow from the forward motion.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I suppose you could either reach up with your hand and start it spinning (that's what the guy in Road Warrior movie did). Or I suspect that some of them have a mechanical means of spinning it.
Stan probably doesn't like to mention that for fear of people confusing it with a helecopter's powered rotor. The gyro powered rotor would only be a device to get the rotor spinning, not to provide powered flight. Once its up to X RPM, it would disconnect.
Some day I'll have to hitch a ride in one of them. Looks like a blast. IIRC, Stan's 'old' kit cost in the neighborhood of $25k. Add that to the $5k-ish it would take to get a pilots licence (assuming a gyro requires one) and you're up to $30k. Just not in my current budget ;)
jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
"Add that to the $5k-ish it would take to get a pilots licence (assuming a gyro requires one)..."
John,
It's more like $10K REALISTICALLY. It can be done for $5K, but few people do. And if you live in a metro area, it's even pricer and harder.....Let's not forget the mandatory getting up in the air every 90 days to keep current once you have it, plus your life insurance can go up.
Flying ain't cheap, just ask my wife.
Also, the only thing you can fly without a license [powered] is an ultralite, which the FAA doesn't really consider a real aircraft, and I believe can only be flown in Class G airspace.
Since so many flying overly heavy ultralites have been breaking the law, EAA lobbied the FAA for the new Sport Pilot category which they got a year ago, which allows for something in between a real plane (ie. a Cessna 172, with a 2650lbs gross weight) and a true ultralite, which I believe is limited to 220lbs gross weight.
Jon
Jon: Fortunately I got my pilots license in 1983. It wasnt that expensive..maybe $1500 then.
As far as operating costs on a gyrocopter.....I had over 230 hours in my Subaru powered...yes..a car engine. It cost me only oil changes....spark plugs.....and the fuel.
I do my annual and there really isnt anything that wears out. Sure...500 hours...put in some new rotor bearings for $100.00...but it is a very economical hobby. I have friends that spend more on gas going to do their golfing...and their green fees far exceed my gyro fees.
I bought and sold my way to this new machine. Each gyro I owned...I flew and made a profit on each one. I rat holed my flying money so as to not take out of the family budget. I moved up to a partically enclosed gyrocopter...flew it for a year and then moved up and built my RAF 2000.
My RAF2000 is on the front cover of the latest Rotorcraft magazine and followed by a large article written by myself. This gave it national exposure and I seized the opportunity and sold it for a lot more than I normally would have gotten out of it. I was able to fully purchase a new SparrowHawk kit...which of course will take several hundred hours to build.
Stan
Edited 8/30/2005 9:02 pm ET by StanFoster
"My RAF2000 is on the front cover of the latest Rotorcraft magazine and followed by a large article written by myself. "
Well I guess congratulations are in order Stan. Feels good to be published, no? What issue? I like to get a copy and a subscription. I've seen what gyro's can do at EAA and as you confirmed they don't fly as efficiently as a fixed wing aircraft, BUT are way safer.
I had a recent flight lesson during the afternoon on a hot humid day and the thermals made the air super choppy up to 5,000' at which point they vanished, so I know what you mean about appreciating the [pardon the pun] gyroscopic capabilities of a gyro.
Honestly think I might build one, once the house is finished up to standard for my wife.
Let me ask you this, how much different is it controlling one? ie C-172's have built-in compensations optimized for ~55 to 100 knots. Outside that range they don't "fly themselves" properly trimmed out. BTW, I believe you stated a few years back you had fixed wing experience, what was it in?
Jon
My RAF2000 is on the front cover of the latest Rotorcraft magazine and followed by a large article written by myself.
Stan, is Rotorcraft mag the membership magazine put out by:
http://www.pra.org/index.php
jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
Edited 8/31/2005 11:21 am ET by JohnT8
John: Thats who puts it out...the Popular Rotorcraft Association.
WorkshopJon: I learned to fly in a Piper Tomahaw...then flew a Cherokee 180 for several years. I then just wanted to fly gyrocopters and thats all I fly now.
I will go into more of their flight characteristics later.
Thanks for the interest....I am not trying to turn this into a flying forum however. <G>
Stan
Would u be taking photos step by step as u did the stairs?
You deserve it..its your passion and we can all imagine why from knowing you
Be WELL BUILT!
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..