I’ve spent the better part of the last day repairing a radiator in my kitchen that has leaked since the house was renovated before my first son was born. Henry is now 10 years old.
Fortunately, since completing the renovation, the heating system has never worked too effectively, meaning this radiator never went on, meaning its leak was hardly a huge issue. However, since I’ve endeavored to learn a bit more about the boiler and, as a result, been fairly diligent about cleaning said (some weird looking, green slimy stuff followed by boiler colloid), the offending radiator has been spewing a bit more regularly. Two nights ago, my wife tore me away from yet another episode of my beloved Law & Order to show me that the fitting at the base of the radiator had pulled completely away. Channelling my best Jimmy Neutron, I said “I can fix that.”
Now, to set the record straight: I’m not merely a homeowner, but a carpenter/cabinetmaker/handyman, so sweating a few joints is by no means out of my league. And, as it happened, I did a fine, fine job with some tricky joints — of course, I now also have a lovely centerpiece on the kitchen table, the result of attempting to do most of the soldering in the garage before repairing to the basement. Damned if I didn’t make the thing almost completely backward on the first go-round. Live and learn.
Lost time and money notwithstanding, there was a method to my apparent remote soldering madness: the area in my basement where said pipes run is so unbelievably fricking cramped — waste line here, sump pump there, electrical wires everywhere — that undertaking any task in this area is a nightmare of epic proportions. Compound these problems with the ultimate pisser: the last joint to be sweated sits approximately 3/4″ away from very old and very dry floor and rim joists; that nailbiter aside, there’s also the fact that it is physically impossible to either see or access the backside of the joint, short of out and out arson (I will admit, thousands of epithets later, at 11PM last night, that seemed a fairly reaasonable route to take).
In short, I have no idea whether I was able to get solder around the entire joint…I think I did a pretty thorough job and as of yet, I don’t smell any smoke (bought one of those flame retarder thingies at the Depot). Of course, it shouldn’t be too hard to determine the quality of my effort later tonight when the furnace kicks on. However, anyone out there have any brilliant suggestions for how I might hit the joint again in a way that fairly well ensures solid solder coverage?
Thanks for bearing with me…it’s been a long day…don’t even get me started on my late-day realization that I’m not sure if said new, beautiful pipes need to be pitched and if they do, did I pitch them enough?
Stephen
Replies
When you heated that joint up enough to suck the copper and you took the pains to bend that end around a tad to give you better first contact back there odds are 99 to .01 that you made the grade.
Don't touch it again until the true test of will she or will she not leak comes into play. Playing with it now could mess up yer good joint.
be graded in the sink or swim test
when in doubt add garlic
Edited 11/2/2006 6:11 pm ET by rez
In this case you might have heated the bottom of said pipe, bent the solder so it flowed from the top down. That way if the pipe was hot enough on the top to flow the solder, it was hot enough to suck it in all the way around. Good luck, tonight.
http://grungefm.com
In such a situation again you might consider tinning the joint you're doing on the work bench. And check the finished joint with a mirror.
What does it mean to "tin" a joint?? The mirror I'll try...
So rez, help me out -- what can happen if one reheats an already-soldered joint? Please, go easy -- not positive I want to know the answer, if you get my drift... (I have been known to throw some more flux on a joint, reheat and throw some more solder on, you know, just to be sure....)
Tinning will pre-solder the pipe for you. Do the expected, clean and flux, then solder, but wipe the solder while it is still molten.
This will leave a skim a solder completely covering the area. The end result will be a bright, thin, solder covering that will allow you to still assembly the joint. Maybe you'll need an little bump of heat.
Think of how more confident you can be knowing that at least half the joint has 100% coverage.
Reheating an already soldered joint is fine as long as the joint was fully soldered to begin with (though even then it may lead to solder running to the bottom of the joint starving the top part). If the joint was only partly covered with the initial soldering it is unlikely that you can make a satisfactory resoldering because of the oxidation of the exposed copper. Usually the best solution is to cut the bad joint(s) out and reassemble with new parts. When the joint is oiginally soldered you cleaned the surfaces and then fluxed them... the flux holds back the oxygen in the air just long enough to get the solder to flow in and replace it. If you don't get the solder into the joint the flux will be burrned out and you'd have to disassemble and reclean and reflux to get a good result.
You can produce quite a suction with your torch if you learn to maneuver it right. The solder tends to flow toward the heat... I will move my torch toward the back of the joint as solder begins to flow. Keep feeding solder as long as it is hot enough to flow so that you don't get joints that are drained of solder at the tops.
Bigfoot said it better than jr.homeowner me could tell ya.
Only thing I'm thinking is the fact that you are questioning yourself on this in the first place which makes me wonder if you applied the heat sufficently around the pipe since it's 1 1/4 and in that tight of a place.
Doing your own you are probably alright but if for someone else and the liability factor it would be risky.
Meaning it could seem ok now but what sometimes can happen when yer away from the house for a while and no one is around if it starts to leak.
If it leaks tonight the thing to do would be to take it out and redo it, on a bench if possible but I don't know what you've got going there.
Plumbers sometimes wet the joists in tight areas like that and carry asbestos pads to keep the heat off the wood.
Hope it's alright tonight and you are sleeping easy.
Cheerswhen in doubt add garlic
I've never had any success with pre-tinning copper plumbing. It makes it impossible to assemble.
As others have said, the OP's joint is probably fine, and shouldn't be fixed unless it really proves to be broke.
-- J.S.
The trick with tinning is to apply the solder and then immediately wipe it with a damp rag, to get virtually all the solder off. You may still need to take as small file to some lumps, but it's usually pretty good.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
I fully understand where you are coming from!
When I have to make a few joints in a system I test with air pressure first before getting the system wet. The way I do this is with a valve I made from a tire valve (less the rubber) soldered into a 1/4" brass nipple then screwed into a 3/4" hose bib cover. Pump up with the compressor to about 20 psi and leave for a few hours. Check the pressure and all the joints for leaks.
If you need to repair/re-sweat its much easier with "dry" joints.
I think pretinning is a good idea, but too late now. I use mapp gas for pipe that large, the extra heat helps. Was having trouble successfully soldering 1" copper in one situation and switched to Acetylene and brazed instead. I have a box of left over chimney liner insulation that is the same as the stuff they sell as flame guard, and can protect a large area if need be. Have reheated and soldered leaky joints without breaking apart and cleaning, in last ditch efforts. Hit and miss, and probably not good.
Not a real plumber but act as one often.
Tom
I'm just curious. Steam or hot water boiler?
Good lord but I do love this site. My sincerest thanks to everyone. I will attempt to answer those questions/rhetorical comments that were put to me...in no particular order.
The system is steam, or so I am pretty certain. A water system wouldn't have need for any Gorton valves on each radiator, correct?
Rez, I'm reasonably confident that I applied enough heat to the joint upon soldering. True, I was made nervous by surrounding wood, but I did have a heat shield in place and I was (and obviously am) concerned about just that scenario (not getting things hot enough). I even tried like hell to apply heat as evenly as possible around about 3/4 of the joint. Obviously, it's that darn last 1/4 that has me anxious. Fortunately, no real damage will result from leaking, no matter how long it goes unattended. Of course, as I noted originally, the damn unit seems to work so sporadically anyway all of my fretting would seem to be for nought.
McFish, I'm not a real anything but I sure do act as one as often as I can...
Now, to "tinning." Damn. Damn...DAMN! I wish I'd presented my problem two days ago. Tinning the damn thing would have made a ton of sense, been fairly straightforward and perhaps have eliminated any heartache. Alas. Live and freaking learn, redux. Well, at least at this stage of things, if I need to tear the whole shebang out and start again I will head into the project that much more up to speed.
Again, I can't thank you guys enough. I come to this board all-too-infrequently, but each time I do, I am fairly blown away at the genuine concern that seems to come from fellow craftsmen/homeowners/raving lunatics who either undertake the same projects or find themselves confronted by the same unending frustrations in their attempts to earn a living with their hands. I take small comfort in knowing I'm not completely alone in my own little tree....
Hate to tell you this. Copper "works" but black iron should really be used on steam.
Rich: Somehow, that doesn't surprise me; when the renovation was done--with my construction-supervisor-father-in-law's workers--I had neither the knowledge nor the ability to pipe up and say "hey, is that really the best...?" And while I would like to do the job properly, time is of some importance in this instance. That is, I want to learn to work with black pipe, but now isn't really a good time to try to teach myself...and, frankly, money is something of an issue, so...
One day, I'll switch out all the copper (there's quite a bit, some even as large as 3", I believe) and do the job properly...until then...
hey, copper scrap is so high now that should pay for the new iron pipe ;-)
Just leave the door unlocked and you won't even have to remove the copper first.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
The same thing about the copper occurred to me at about 3 AM...what is it going for these days? And if anyone in the northern New Jersey area wants to drop by and do some demo...
Rich, would copper have been used simply because it's "easier" to work with? I suspect yes, given the lazy route that most of the guys who worked on my house seemed to take...
Cynwyd: "Keep the flame away from direct contact with the flux" -- am I to infer the same directive holds true for soldering in general? If yes, I would further assume that the time it takes to sweat a joint would therefore increase? Oh, and let's say I'm a novice and my flame DOES contaminate the flux--can't I just resand and reflux the area before soldering again?? Don't get me wrong, I'm begging to become more proficient and look like a real solderer (even now, I strive to keep my joints "cleaner" than those nasty looking mothers littering my basement), but, in a pinch, will my less elegant method suffice??
Continued thanks to all.
If for reasons unknown here now you have to go in there again in the same situation to try 'er again using a thinner class fitting might help with the heat distribution.
be sometimes every little bit helps
be 2centswhen in doubt add garlic
If you do tin keep the flame away from direct contact with the flux, it will burn and leave a black residue and comtaiminate the area you want to leave a coating of clean shiny solder.