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soldering copper pipe please help!

xosder11 | Posted in General Discussion on August 21, 2006 02:10am

I’m nearing the end of my rope here.  Trying to solder the bottom of a ball valve onto a piece of 1/2″ copper coming out of the floor vertically.  Gravity seems to be working against me, and I hate woprking with brass fittings.  Any tips for gettign the solder to suck up into the joint snd stay there?  I’ve tried 5 times now and it always leaks. 

I’ve sweated pipes before but the brass fitting coupled with teh uphill battle with the solder is working against me.

 

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Replies

  1. davidmeiland | Aug 21, 2006 02:22am | #1

    If there is ANY water in the pipe it will foil your efforts... the pipe will not get hot enough to solder correctly. You can use a blowgun on an airhose to blow into the pipe, then back away as water shoots out.

    If there's no water, then I suspect lack of flux, excess heat, air pressure pushing out thru the joint, possibly a few other things. There is no reason that solder will not wick up nicely into a vertical joint, if there is the right amount of heat (not too much), flux, etc. 

    Tell us more about what the exact circumstances.

  2. User avater
    IMERC | Aug 21, 2006 02:23am | #2

    super clean..

    flux...

    assemble...

    heat the valve body at the joint... not the pipe...

    when the solder melt it will wick in to the joint..

     

     

    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

    WOW!!! What a Ride!

    Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

  3. DanH | Aug 21, 2006 02:26am | #3

    Stop and clean everything off again real good, so it's nice and shiny. Add plenty of flux. Get the fitting hot enough to melt the solder (put heat on the fitting, not the pipe) and then touch the solder to the joint. (Pre-bend about an inch and a half of solder up on the tip of the solder wire, so it will go right into the joint.) It should suck up into the joint. Don't worry that some solder rolls off -- you don't need all that much solder in the joint to achieve a good joint.

    If this doesn't work it may well be that you have soft copper pipe from a roll and it's not round. Often flare fittings work better in such a case.

    If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
    1. User avater
      IMERC | Aug 21, 2006 02:29am | #4

      mixing no- lead and leaded compoents??? 

       

      Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

      WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

      Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

      1. xosder11 | Aug 21, 2006 02:53am | #7

        Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

        Someone had told me to heat the pipe and not the fitting.  That explains it .And I want teh valve open or closed.  I think someone had said open right?

         

        1. Pierre1 | Aug 21, 2006 02:57am | #8

          If you heated a closed ball valve, throw it away and buy a new one. The old one is bound to leak. 

        2. davidmeiland | Aug 21, 2006 02:58am | #9

          Open, to prevent pressure from building up in the line and pinholing out thru your solder joint.

        3. User avater
          IMERC | Aug 21, 2006 03:14am | #10

          open...

          get a new valve... old one turned colors ya say... that'd be a trashed valve.... 

           

          Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

          WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

          Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

          1. webby | Aug 21, 2006 03:50am | #11

            I was reading the thread and I wondered what the limit for heating copper pipe is? One poster said to not heat the pipe or valve too much.  I have soldered lots of pipe with propane and mapp. I have never had a pipe melt and usually don't have much trouble, However lots of my joints have a touch of the rainbow look after I have soldered them.

            Am I heating too much? I just apply heat evenly until the solder wicks into the joint.

            Webby

          2. User avater
            IMERC | Aug 21, 2006 03:55am | #13

            rainbow is too hot...

            when the solder begins to melt remove the heat..

            over heating the copper causes it to flake, become brittle or phiffy.... 

             

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

            Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

          3. DanH | Aug 21, 2006 04:01am | #15

            The slight rainbow isn't a problem -- fairly normal with the amount of heat you need for lead-free solder. The problem is if you get the copper (or brass) too hot for too long (and especially if it goes through several heat/cool cycles) it can crystalize. This weakens the metal and makes it more susceptable to developing pinholes.
            If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

          4. xosder11 | Aug 21, 2006 03:51am | #12

            I picked up an extra one at the store today, just in case.  does it matter what direction the valve goes in.  It has no indicator arrow, as did the stop valves and the gate valves I looket at, so I'll assume not.

          5. User avater
            IMERC | Aug 21, 2006 03:57am | #14

            no arrow.. put it in as you please...

            can you pull the guts on the vale before you solder.. 

             

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

            Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

          6. DanH | Aug 21, 2006 04:03am | #16

            Generally with a ball valve you want the handle (when the valve is open) pointing in the direction of water flow (absent any arrows cast into the valve body to the contrary). Of course, you also want to make sure that the handle has clearance for its full swing and won't, eg, bump into the concrete floor or into the wall when operated.

            If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

          7. xosder11 | Aug 21, 2006 04:09am | #17

            ok.  I assumed correctly. Having the handle in the direction of flow made sence to me, so thats how I put it.  I just put the spare in.  Joints look good.  I about 10 min or so I'm going to the basement to let er rip.  then, when the GF, who will be having her cell phone to her ear gives me the "all clear"  I'm coming back upstairs and making a drink. 

            For the record, I hate plumbing.  I have obviously offended the plumbing gods, and they refuse to forgive me.  My hands are burned, and I'm filthy.

          8. DanH | Aug 21, 2006 04:12am | #18

            I hate plumbing too, especially since we DIYers usually do it evenings and weekends when the hardware stores close early, so if we need something unexpectedly we can be in a world of hurt.

            If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

  4. luckymudster | Aug 21, 2006 02:42am | #5

    The ball valve is heavier/thicker than the copper pipe, so it will be more difficult to heat sufficiently to make the solder flow. All the same preliminaries apply as with copper to copper (you know, make sure both pieces are clean and sanded nice and bright, use clean flux, etc.), but you might try using MAPP gas rather than propane. It burns hotter. Two points though. One, use a torch that's rated for MAPP. You can safely use a torch rated for MAPP with propane, but not the opposite. Second, because it burns hotter you have to be careful not to overheat the copper. Or for that matter, the brass too.

    Of course, another option would be to go with a ball valve with a compression fitting. Hey, no sweat (groan).

    Hope this helps and good luck.

  5. Pierre1 | Aug 21, 2006 02:46am | #6

    Well, when the fittings are brushed, kept free of dirt/debris, and flux paste of the right type applied to both surfaces, and then heated sufficiently (but not too much, lol) the solder ought to wick up into the ball valve socket, by capillary action.

    You need a good torch for this work: burns MAPP gas, and gives a big flame that wraps around the fitting or pipe. Even temperatures help the solder draw evenly into the joint. Propane is not hot enough for most plumbing tasks.

    Heat works its way up. When soldering an upright valve, remember that it has a high thermal mass. This means it will absorb lots of heat, thereby robbing the pipe of heat, so you end up with a warmish joint that does not draw solder properly or evenly.

    I usually first apply a bit of heat to the valve (keep it open!), then move the flame to the pipe. Heat the pipe evenly for 10-15 seconds or so, then go back and forth from the pipe to the valve. Touch your solder wire to the pipe, where it goes into the valve body. When the temperature is right, the solder will melt and rise into the joint by capillary action. Feed a bit more till a drop of excess solder comes out the joint, then stop. You are done.

    Do not disturb the fitting till it has cooled down. Then wipe excess flux with a rag - the stuff is corrosive.

    You'll have to start all over again by heating the parts till they can be taken apart with slip-jaw pliers, then sand the excess solder off the pipe and valve socket. Let completely cool, brush, dry fit, apply flux to both parts and go for it.

    If it still won't go, you could try a compression type valve instead, on a clean solder-free section of pipe. If there's enough pipe left, cut out the messed up area with a tube cutter, not a hacksaw. Tighten with a couple crescent wrenches. Do not overtighten the comp fitting, you can always tighten more afterwards if water pearls.

    Btw, it is customary practice to solder pipe to both ends of a valve, sequentially, starting at the bottom and finishing at the top. You will not get reliable joints otherwise.

    Also remember that all parts must be completely dry.

    Finally, if there is standing water in the lower pipe coming out of the floor, you'll have to remove it (suck/pump it out with a small tube) or else the water will absorb most of the heat and the joints will never get hot enough to draw solder by capillary action.

    Good luck.

    Edit: dang, you boys are fast. ;)

     



    Edited 8/20/2006 7:49 pm ET by Pierre1

  6. xosder11 | Aug 21, 2006 04:34am | #19

    It worked!  It worked!  It worked!  6th times a charm as they say

    Thank the lord.  I can take a hot shower  tonight, and get the taint of plumbing off of me.  I can't thank all of you enough.  I would still be holding the torch to the pipe with the valve in the closed position if It werent for you.  For all your quick replys, thank you.

    Honestly, you have no idea how good it feels to get this one behind me. Or maybe you do.................................;) 

    GF and I are celebrating.  This girl's a keeper. Stuck by my side to help through the whole darn thing. 

    1. DanH | Aug 21, 2006 04:39am | #20

      No, she's a keeper if she can stick with you even when the toilet isn't working for three days.

      If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

      1. xosder11 | Aug 21, 2006 04:50am | #22

        Been there, done that.  And it was rough.

         

    2. User avater
      IMERC | Aug 21, 2006 04:41am | #21

      after all that and I don't recal anyone saying to move the solder around the joint's seam as / while it melts...

      good to know ya got it... 

       

      Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

      WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

      Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

      1. xosder11 | Aug 21, 2006 04:53am | #23

        Luckly I knew the basics,  heat on one side, and push the solder on the other, then pull heat off and slide tha sodler around the joint, then wipe with damp towell.  But the ball valve was a first for me.  

        OK no more typing tonight, Got blisters on the ends of all my fingers. 

        1. Pierre1 | Aug 21, 2006 07:34am | #24

          You'll be her hero tonight. Enjoy. ;) 

  7. User avater
    Fonzie | Aug 21, 2006 03:22pm | #25

    Sorry if this has already been mentioned. Sometimes with old copper I have had to resort to "tinning" both pieces, then heat and push them together, with fresh flux.

    I like to instantly cool a solder joint with a sponge - especially one close to a valve. The instant cooling seems to work good for no leaks, maybe by keeping a vapor from making a hole in the hot solder.

    1. User avater
      IMERC | Aug 21, 2006 03:54pm | #26

      rapid cooling can produce a "cold" solder joint... 

       

      Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

      WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

      Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

    2. EJG | Aug 21, 2006 03:57pm | #27

      I was also told that instant cooling can sometimes cause the solder to misbehave - crystalize? Try to let it cool on it's own if possible.

      Don K.

      EJG Homes     Renovations - New Construction - Rentals

      1. User avater
        IMERC | Aug 21, 2006 04:26pm | #28

        that is what is referred to as a cold solder joint... 

         

        Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

        WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

        Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

        1. alfie | Aug 21, 2006 04:53pm | #30

          I am switching to MAPP from a Bernzomatic TS2000 propane torch, for my occasional soldering projects. When I first learnt to solder, I got lucky and got some halfway decent joints. (Can’t recall what qualified as that – perhaps just that the joint did not leak.) It was downhill from there, and a couple of guys suggested I should switch to MAPPP. I found a Bernzomatic TS4000 torch, and a Bernzomatic TS8000, both MAPP. Which is appropriate? Is the TS8000 an overkill?

          1. davidmeiland | Aug 21, 2006 05:01pm | #31

            I have the basic Bernzomatic trigger torch, can't remember the number but it was $30 or so at the hardware store and is more than enough. Since your need is occasional that's all I'd get.

          2. DanH | Aug 21, 2006 05:09pm | #32

            Yeah, I have a MAPP trigger torch (don't recall the brand) and it's the neatest thing since sliced bread. The old style turn-the-knob torch was balky at best, and always a hazard in any kind of confined space. The trigger torch is much more reliable, safer, and produces a better joint. The ability to use MAPP further improves the ability to make good joints with non-lead solder.
            If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

          3. davidmeiland | Aug 21, 2006 05:13pm | #33

            Hey, did I tell you the one about my buddy driving along with his trigger torch standing in a bucket in the back of his van... he turned a corner, the torch leaned against the edge of the bucket and something else leaned on the torch... everything just right, trigger got pressed... started cooking a plastic toolbox right next to the bucket... yee-ha! I also like the way the torch head has enough gas for one nice burst after you take it off the bottle!

          4. alfie | Aug 21, 2006 11:42pm | #35

            Thanks. I got the TS8000. You never know when you need some serious heat.

      2. DanH | Aug 21, 2006 04:49pm | #29

        Actually, rapid cooling will prevent a "cold" solder joint. There are two types of "cold" joint. One occurs when the solder stays too long near the transition temperature between solid and liquid, resulting in crystalization of the metal and separation of its components. The other occurs when the surfaces to be joined simply aren't heated enough (or are improperly tinned), so the solder doesn't fuse to the surfaces.

        If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

  8. woodway | Aug 21, 2006 10:55pm | #34

    Make sure the valve is in the open position before you solder. If still a problem, solder on short nipple first then solder the short piece to the existing with a straight coupling.

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