Hey guys I’m a homeowner who hasn’t done a lot of soldering. The problem I’m having is the solder seems to “clump” on the pipe instead of smoothly running around the pipe. I always heat the fitting and apply the solder to the pipe on the opposite side of the fitting from where I’m applying the heat. What can I do to prevent this from happening? Any suggestions?
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cleanness and flux thats the secret
I always clean and flux the pipe and the fitting before soldering.
What brownbagg said. Also, I'd add that if there is any water in the pipe, you won't be able to heat it enough to make the solder flow nicely, but not cleaning away oxidation or not using flux will also give poor results. You are correct in applying the solder to the side opposite the heat and letting the heat draw the solder.
There are some differences in solder and flux some are easier to use.
I use whats called a tinning flux from Oatey.
You may not be getting quite enough heat if it doesn't flow smoothly and evenly.
When I first started a few plumbing repairs around the house I went to Lowes and got some Sterling brand solder and water based flux. I could not get a joint to take solder very well, it would clump-up, run out, etc and leak as soon as I turn the water back on. Finally after much frustration I went to a local plumbing shop to find out what I was doing wrong. It was recommended I try using a different flux and solder. I purchased some Oatey tinning flux and solder..........wow what a difference, ALL my soldering frustrations disappeared and best of all no more hassles with re-doing things several times because of leaking joints. The remaining Sterling flux and soldier I had went straight in the trash.
As mentioned by several others clean your pipe and fittings VERY well and do NOT touch them to avoid oils from your fingers contaminating the freshly prepped surfaces.
"The remaining Sterling flux and soldier I had went straight in the trash."That's interesting. I have found the Sterling brand of solder to work very well. It is my preferred brand at the supply house. However I do usually use Otey or Nokorrode flux, as the Sterling flux seems to have grit in it that makes the fittings fit very tight on the pipe. But all the major brands work and not everyone agrees on favorites!Frank DuVal
Get just a piece of scrap copper pipe. Thoroughly clean and flux one end, then heat it and apply solder. Work at that (keep cutting fresh ends) until you can get a nice smooth coat of solder on there.
Then try again with a fitting on the pipe (buy several of the cheapest fittings you can find). Work at it until you can get the solder to suck into the joint the way it's supposed to.
Clumping is due either to not enough heat or lack of proper cleaning/fluxing. Or overheating the pipe and burning off the flux.
Thought I would contribute to the site, seeing as how everyone here has bailed me out many times. 1 What torch and flux are you using 2 What size pipe are you trying to solder 3 Are you soldering a fitting or a heavy valve 4 Is there any water laying in the pipe 5 If you heat the joint too much it's just as bad as not enough you'll "burn" the joint and you will never get solder to flow Joint will have to be disassembled cleaned and refit I'm an hvac tech and have run into every problem you can imagine. E-mail me if you need any more help
The new lead free solder is also harder to get a good joint with than the old stuff and more heat is required. In the old days once the solder started to flow a guy could just about take the torch away and finish the joint with the heat in the pipe.
One of our plumbers suggested a technique that has worked well. With the torch at the bottom of the fitting and solder at top, heat until the solder starts to flow and keep the torch on while feeding more solder into all sides of the joint finishing back at the top of the joint.
Use good flux and solder and have fun.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
heat the fitting...
follow the other recomendations...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Try heating the pipe just above the fitting for a few seconds before you heat the fitting itself.
As you know, cleanliness and the application of flux is very important.
I have had good luck with Harris and Oatey brand flux paste- it only takes a little bit applied to the pipe or male fitting.
When you see the flux start to bubble, the temperature is almost right.
Solder melts at around 450*, so the most common mistake is too much heat. A plain old propane torch takes only about 10 seconds to heat up 1/2 or 3/4 inch copper for soldering (MAPP gas is even hotter). It will take a bit longer if you are connecting a heavy piece like a ball valve.
If you see a green flame from the torch, you are burning the joint and the solder will not stick- even if you try to force the whole roll in there.
Any standing water or dripping will cool the joint as the water boils off, creating the problem you are describing.
I may be doing something wrong.
I've been doing minor plumbing for years and would heat the fitting UNTIL I saw a green tinge to the flame, then take away the torch and go. Your post advises against this, although I've had no problems, just wondering how you know the pipe is at temp.?
I just sort of touch the solder to the side away from the heat and when it's the right temp, the solder just flows. Until then it doesn't. Not trying to be a smart a$$ (it just comes naturally).
I used to work in a jewelry store doing silver soldering--there if you got something too hot, suddenly a hole would appear! Not a good thing! (Like when you're working on great grandma's gold ring that's been passed down and you're resizing it and suddenly you've melted half the ring! We had a big window and sometimes the cutomer would stand and watch.) But there we used little square pieces of solder and heated it until the borax flux started to sizzle, then suddenly the solder melted and you were done.
i would just like to add that it is possible to use the heat to pull the solder in the direction you want to go, and i like to use distance and location to control the heat and get the solder to do just what i want it to for the situation. i didn't read any posts addressing the relationship of location, distance, and direction of solder flow.
i also use mapp (methyl acytel propadiene) gas because it is hotter than propane. heat cleaned and fluxed fitting from bottom until solder begins to melt at top then bring heat back a little from the joint towards the pipe causing the solder to pull in without overheating joint.
its hard to explain, and its a touchy feely thing that you have to be very attentive and methodical to master, as plumbill ponts out journey level plumbers/pipefitters can screw it up.
frinstance if you have an ell (90) fitting with one pipe horizontal and one vertical you would solder the bottom first then top and torch may be pointed at middle of ell and pulled away slightly to control heat for the final solder in from the top.
hope this helps, absolutely love the post about bra(is)ing, that was priceless, do not quit posting, i do that all the time. its just a matter of shooting from the hip to see if i am remembering right most of the time, they will let you know in here most riki tik if you are full of poop, and that is how you learn. just remember there are others who know even less, and are afraid to post because the invisible online peeps will dog them. there is always someone that knows more about something.
life is short, don't be a lurker.
" its a touchy feely thing"Thanks, but no thanks.Those joints get HOT..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
i was posting figuratively not literally.
you need to get a "feel" for controlling the heat, and thus the movement of the solder by your "touch" on the cool part of the torch.
also if you are in the habit of sticking your tongue out the side of your mouth when you are concentrating (ala michael jordan) on the perfect sweat solder, the hot no seeum sparks landing on your tongue will quickly break you of the habit.
NoBut I like to lick the light pole to see if it is cold..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Don't lick the light bulb. Makes them blow up. Dont ask how I found out.
Also makes your tongue hurt, at least that's what I hear.
Yes, steel wool has oil in it and should not be used to clean pipe for soldering. I never use it in finishing woodwork even though others do. The oils will mess the finish especially if it's water base.Use emery cloth made specifically for cleaning pipe. I use acetylene, but mapp gas is fine, just not as hot, and propane will do the job too, just not as quickly as the other two. Tinners flux, keep it off your fingers.
Brass or bronze and the fixtures heat first and keep testing by touching the solder to the joint and when it starts to melt, give the torch a few more seconds, then take it away and neatly lay your bead of solder into the joint. I like to wipe the joint while still a bit molten for a clean job.I miss working with the old stuff, the 60-40 or 50-50 with the lead. It was like butter.Segundo is right, there is a feel and a timing to soldering in knowing when to apply the solder. I do it by the color of the copper. It comes with practice.
Old stuff?
I just bought 4 rolls of 50/50 the other day & used up a whole roll after day 2----- Now I do have to keep it in my hidden drawer under lock & key so the waterboys don't grab it by mistake.I fear no man & only one GOD. Me
The green tinge is the flux burning off. At that point, the joint is too hot.
Same goes for soldering coppers in the sheet metal biz- if they are in the oven so long that there is a green flame, then the tinning has been burned off.
I am no master with flux products, but when the flux starts to boil, the temperature is close to where it needs to be. This has been true for me with plain old soldering and the little bit of brass brazing I have done.
I use a paste flux for pluming solder jobs, and when it starts to boil off, the joint is usually hot enough to take the solder.
Plumbers solder melts around 460* F, which isn't really that hot- about 10 seconds of heat from a propane torch on 1/2" and 3/4" copper pipe and fittings (nice Nibco bronze ball valves take a bit longer).
Thanks for the tip.
So, just to review, when the flux starts to bubble, put the solder to it. I don't do a lot of plumbing, but when I do, I think I use too much solder. Probably because the joint was too hot. I'll try this technique next time out.
thanks
That's the general idea. :)
When the flux bubbles, the temperature is close.
Have fun
Ditto on the cleanliness, water in the pipes, and the correct type of flux and solder. I'm a bit of a fanatic when it comes to cleaning the pipe and NOT touching it before it it joined. Wear some nitrile gloves if you can to keep your skin oils off the copper once it's clean. (They also keep the flux out of any cuts or nicks you may have on your hands. OUCH!)
One more point: Don't use too much solder. A good rule of thumb is to use a length of solder equal to the pipe diameter (about a 1/2" piece of solder for half inch pipe, etc.)
Then wipe the soldered joint with a clean dry rag before the solder hardens.
Pete Duffy, Handyman
For the most part that is true--- about how much solder to use---- except when you get into the bigger fittings it will take more than the diameter.
IE, 6" copper can take a foot or more to get a good seal.I fear no man & only one GOD. Me
MAPP gas. Not propane. You'll be amazed at the difference...
While everyone has stressed 'cleaning', maybe it would be a good idea to describe what that really is. First, the pipe should be reamed of the flange that is created when you use a tube cutter. You'll feel it when you stick your finger in the pipe. It only takes a second and it lets the water flow smoothly. Then the pipe is cleaned by using emory paper, which is for all intents and purposes is a strip of sandpaper, but I'm not sure of the type of grit it uses. Anyway, wrap the end of the pipe in the emory paper and twist so the end of the pipe is abraded clean. After it's nice and shiny, don't touch it with your fingers because the oil may keep things from adhering. For the fitting, you abrade the inside by using special wire brushes. Now you're ready to flux. Flux all mating surfaces. Heat the fitting, rather than the pipe. Hold the solder on the side of the fitting/pipe that is opposite the flame. That way you won't have a 'cold' side. Once the solder flows, you're done. Let the joint cool for a few minutes and then spray some soapy water on it and clean it nicely with a rag. It's just my personal opinion but I think Mapp gas is better used when the diameter of the pipe is 1 inch or more... it's just too easy to burn the flux with smaller diameters. And, yes, Oatey tinning flux would help stack the deck in your favor. Good luck!
Green ScotchBrite pads work well for cleaning too, especially short stubby pieces of pipe.Pete Duffy, Handyman
What about steel wool? That's what my dad always used.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Good question. Somewhere I've picked up the notion that steel wool has a trace of oil in it. I have no idea if that's true. If true, I'd worry that the oil might have an adverse effect.
I've also heard that steel wool has oil in it. Some woodworkers object to using it for that reason.
Never use steel wool to clean copper for soldering. Dissimilar metals and the oil that has already been mentioned. EMERY paper only. It is sold in little rolls about 1-2"wide. Flux , heat and solder. You'll be a pro before you know it..good luck
gary..
I wasn't the poster with the problem, but, I seem to vaguely recollect something about NOT using emery because it has iron oxide or something? But everyone I know uses emery. Don't know what else you could use--sandpaper, I suppose, but emery cloth is nice because it's easy to wrap around the pipe and hold while you use it.
Most of the emory cloth I use has aluminum oxide not iron oxide.
On my med gas systems we use scotchbrite pads.I fear no man & only one GOD. Me
HD has the handy little plastic cleaners that work by pushing over the fitting and twisting. No need for any other method on half and three quarter inch. For bigger stuff, you might have to worry about such things.
So far as I know steel wool has oil on it, to keep it from rusting away to nothing.
Man, I agree. I had trouble getting enough oomph from propane, especially when soldering copper to brass valves, switched to Mapp. What a difference! I did have to be very careful with the Mapp torch, as it takes a fraction of the time and it is easy to burn the joint if you aren't careful.
sorry to have to point this out, it doesnt help, Soldering is for circuit boards and braising is for plumbing. I know its interchangeable but Im a stickler for terms.
Braising for me is all about getting the copper to temp asap. Home store bottle types dont work as well as mixed gas ones. The pipes gotta be hot! If its clumping then the pipe aint hot enough or you are applying too much solder. That stuff melts fast and doesnt take much pressure to apply. IF you are new to the skill get the pre tinned fittings or practice on pipe at home. Scrap pipe not your fixtures. Once you get good enough. by the way, all the plumbers Ive seen do not use flux, they barely sand the ends.
" Soldering is for circuit boards and braising is for plumbing. "What is the diffeence between soldering and braising?I have always seen one like similar to this.http://www.cowtown.net/mikefirth/glosothr.htm"Braising
joining two metal objects by using material that melts above 840F so the material merges with with metal in the objects. silver and brass are the most common braising metals. soldering is lower temperature. also welding""Soldering
joining metal objects by heating below 800F and applying a metal solder which may contain tin, lead, bismuth, silver in various combinations to control melting point. True silver soldering is braising. also welding""Welding
joining two objects, usually metal, but also glass, by melting the materials until they merge. Soldering, Braising 2004-02-26 Also used with plastics where a solvent is used to soften the plastic - solvent welding."Based on that copper can be soldered or it can be braised. In most cases copper water pipe would be soldered..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Yeah, I agree with Bill. Brazing (sometimes called "hard soldering") is a different beast from plumbing soldering.Brazing is generally used for freon lines, etc, but not for copper water pipes.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Sorry but your post is wrong, most plumbing is soldered.
for the sake of your post, (and your plumbing) please ignore rpait.
"Soldering is for circuit boards and braising is for plumbing. . . . Im a stickler for terms"
Actually, braising is for lamb -- or beef, or vegatables, or whatever.
"Braising (from the French "braiser") is cooking with "moist heat," typically in a covered pot with a variable amount of liquid, resulting in a particular flavor."
(I'm a stickler for terms, too.) ;-)
In my experience, "brazing", as the term is commonly used in the trades, is most typically used in AC lines. It differs from soldering in that the temps are usually higher, and brazing rod is used instead of solder, which is copper-based (like brass, hence the term "brazing") where solder is tin based. Brazing is generally stronger than solder.
"Brazing is a process for joining similar or dissimilar metals using a filler metal that typically includes a base of copper combined with silver, nickel, zinc or phosphorus. Brazing covers a temperature range of 900ÂşF - 2200ÂşF (470ÂşC - 1190ÂşC). Brazing differs from welding in that brazing does not melt the base metals, therefore brazing temperatures are lower than the melting points of the base metals. For the same reason, brazing is a superior choice in joining dissimilar metals. Brazed joints are strong. A properly-made joint (like a welded joint) will in many cases be as strong or stronger than the based metals being joined."
"Soldering is the process in which two metals are joined together by means of a third metal or alloy having a relatively low melting point. Soft soldering is characterized by the value of the melting point of the third metal or alloy, which is below 450°C (842°F).[1] The third metal or alloy used in the process is called solder.
Soldering is distinguished from brazing by use of a lower melting-temperature filler metal."
Based on the above definitions, I'd bet that the OP was attempting to solder, not braze.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Having worked as a chef for 10 years I am amused at your comment on a construction forum. I think I will make some tonight, it has made me hungry.
My comment regarding soldering comes from a comment made by my father and I thought I would throw it in there for fun. It isnt the first time I have been group corrected though. The responses I gained has shown me to temper my need to interject. I dont take it personally but do realize that there is a vast knowledge pool here and I am swimming in the shallow end. I appreciate this group however and find the discussions very informative and entertaining. I hope everyone I trade comments with will understand that I am just trying to participate and anything I learn as a result is gratefully appreciated.
-worth exactly 2 cents!
rpait, my post was posted just for1 fun as well, as I tried to indicate with the smiley. Glad you took it as such. BTW, I'll be over for dinner. What are you going to braise? ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I like to do beef short ribs.-worth exactly 2 cents!
Thanks to everyone for their quick responses and suggestions. I was mostly having the problem while soldering copper to brass fittings so I'm going to buy a cylinder of Mapp gas as several of you have recommended.
I have one more related question. I want to solder a transitional fitting (Copper to ABS) onto the copper drain pipe (1 1/2") leading to my laundry tub. With that diameter pipe should I heat the fitting and the pipe or just the fitting and should I hold the torch in one place or move it around the circumference of the fitting?
I want to solder a transitional fitting (Copper to ABS)
OK I know what you're talking about, but that struck me as funny.
Basic rules to soldering, heat fitting twice as much as you heat the pipe. Start at the bottom & work up. Pipe & fitting melt the solder NOT the torch.
Now if you can master that, you would make it on my crew----- I had my overpriced guys install 8 6" fittings 2 of them was done in a vise at table level, I had to go & re-solder every fitting------ my fuse is short & my blood pressure is off the charts.I fear no man & only one GOD. Me
make sure yur torach is rated for mapp...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Internet info is like the Mississippi - "a mile wide and an inch deep". Nobody has a firm and final grip on the truth. What is truth, anyway?
I like to graze for information and pick what makes sense to me. Essentially, that is what we all do anyway. If all your buddies say 800 degrees and someone else says 900, chances are you will be a belliever that soldering stops at 800 and brazing begins.
Ultimately, it is only a definition. Not critical.
My Encarta dictionary says:
braze1
braze1 [brayz] (past brazed, past participle brazed, present participle braz·ing, 3rd person present singular braz·es) transitive verb
1. make something with brass: to make something out of brass or decorate something with brass
2. make something hard like brass: to give something a hardness like that of brass
[Old English brasian . Formed from bræs "brass," subsequently reinforced by the parallel glass and glaze .]
I'll add what I can, but if you can answer post 7 first so I don't get repetitive with everyone else.
I fear no man & only one GOD. Me