Replies

1. 
   rez | Aug 27, 2005 05:32pm | #1

   Greetings palatine, as a first time poster, Welcome to Breaktime. This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again. Perhaps it will catch someones attention that can help you with advice. Cheers

    

   as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"

   
    

2. 
   Griff | Aug 27, 2005 11:51pm | #2

   Are you sure you're talking stain and not paint? Got an empty can left over from the last time it was applied? What does the label say on it? What was the brand name? Oil or latex? Paint or stain?

   A stain gets absorbed into the wood. Just like when you spill salad dressing on your brand new shirt - the oil gets absorbed into the material and there is nothing you can do to get rid of it. The stain is just that: a stain. It may fade over time, but it doesn't go away.

   But, the white paint applied to the wood trim around my windows does chip, crack and peel.  Even though the trim was scraped to bare wood and an oil based primer applied beforehand. Even though it was Benjamin Moore primer and paint.  Even though a very fine professional crew applied it.  After a few years, it cracks and peels - especially on the south and west sides of the house.

   But, the stain remains on my 30 y/o cedar siding.  Faded a bit more on the south and west exposures than the rest of the house.  But no cracking, splitting or peeling. True, a number of the boards on the southern exposure warped and bowed, but that was because the builder did not have the siding stained on both sides before installation.  I had that done when I had the southern exposure replaced.  Since then, no more warping or bowing.  But, even that was the whole cedar boards.  The stain remained on the outside of the boards even as the boards twisted and curled out from the house.

   Did you go back to your paint dealer and ask him about the problem?  What was his response?

   Griff
1. 
   donk123 | Aug 28, 2005 01:38am | #3

   Griff - This is a solid color stain. It's much more like a paint, doesn't sink into the wood the same way a transparent or semi-transparent does. I'm working on a job right now where the wood was stained (solid color) 5-7 years ago. There are areas where the finish is peeling down to bare wood, not many, but some. As a matter of fact, the BM dealer gave me an oil base paint to use as a primer under the next layer of stain and said that it should be used on all the trim too.

   I do agree with you that I would be back at the manufacturer asking them for some input. The poster's situation sounds a little unusual but it's beyond me.

   Don

1. 
   Griff | Aug 28, 2005 04:40am | #4

   Don

   Just to make sure I wasn't losing more of my mind than I'm normally accustomed to admit, after I read your post I went out to the garage to dig out the leftover can of stain I had applied to the house. From the weight of it, I'd say it's probably just an empty can that I kept for reference.

   It's Cabot's O.V.T. Solid Color Oil Stain. Under the name it has an advertising line that states it: "Covers Like Paint - Performs Like Stain."

   Among other things on the back of the can are the "Directions For Use" which include the following statement: (Under the section entitled "Surface Preparation")  "In order to be effective, a stain must be able to penetrate." Doesn't tell you much beyond the obvious.

   So, I went to Cabot's web site (http://www.cabotstain.com) and searched out whether that company recognizes a problem with peeling stain.  Oddly enough, it does. Here's a link to a Technical Bulletin on Peeling: http://www.cabotstain.com/shared_frames.cfm?area=askexp&cabot=1

   Basically, peeling can occur due to excessive moisture either from interior or exterior sources. Since this is a coating that's exposed to the elements, I assume the company is referring to moisture that enters behind the siding and seeks to exit out through the siding. Has never happened to me or, as I said earlier, to anyone that I know if in my neighborhood. I suspect that is because all the homes were constructed by a knowledgeable and basically honest builder. At least, he didn't try to cut corners in that respect.

   So, I learned something new (not that that's unusual) here. A stain can peel! Still sounds like an oxymoron to me: If it can peel off, then it's not really a stain. But, in fact, it is a stain, or at least it's marketed as a stain. If I get some on my skin, it doesn't wash off and I can't let it dry and rub it off like I can with paint. If I get some stain on my work clothes, I can't get it out in the wash. So, it is a stain in some respects. Go figure.Griff

1. 
   BillHartmann | Aug 28, 2005 06:18pm | #6

   That is for an oil stain.From my limited experience the solid color latex stains are very close to paint and are more of a surface coating.

1. 
   Griff | Aug 28, 2005 09:23pm | #8

   I have to agree -- your statement makes a lot of sense. Using a latex stain is not something I had considered in responding to the post since I've always used oil based stains. Frankly, I had forgotten they even make the stuff and the Technical Bulleting on Peeling that I referred to does not differentiate between Latex and Oil stains. Ya think they would have mentioned it and said "Use Oil"!Griff

2. 
   palatine | Aug 29, 2005 03:33am | #10

   Thanks for the link. I agree the stain isn't a stain!

2. 
   palatine | Aug 31, 2005 05:36am | #12

   The following is what I learned at the From Western Red Cedar Lumbar association Web site. It appears the problem on the house in question was improper preparation of the siding dating back 20 years! the information below addresses the preparation of the cedar, proper application technique for solid color stains (the site has info on all other finishes too), and addresses the factory glazing issue (which they say doesn't exist). According to them solid color stain life expectancy is 3-5 years on smooth side out and 4-6 years on rough side out versus paint 10 plus years. My own house has semitransparent stain that they say is good for only 1-2 years but it has been on 20 years and I've only had to redo part of the house in that time although the cedar is quite weathered which doesn't bother me because I like the weathered look ( and it doesn't peal or crack!) Guess I have gone full circle and answered my original question. but we all learned something I hope. ------------------------
   From Western Red Cedar Lumbar association: Surface Preparation - http://www.wrcla.org/finishingcedar/finishingconcepts/guidetoextfinishing.asp The surface condition of the wood to which the finish is to be applied can substantially affect the performance and hence the life expectancy of the finish. The following procedures should prove helpful: New Wood
   New wood such as cedar siding and trim, should be protected from the weather before, during and after construction. It is seldom necessary to carry out extensive surface preparation providing the wood has not weathered for more than two weeks and is clean and dry. If it has been contaminated by dirt, oil and other foreign substances they must be removed. For smooth-planed, flat-grained cedar, some surface preparation may be desirable. On flat-grained wood, the surface should be scuff-sanded with 50-60 grit sandpaper. This procedure will greatly increase the coatings performance but will not detract from a smooth finish. Surface preparation is not necessary for textured cedar. Weathered New Wood
   Weathered new wood that has been exposed to the elements for longer than 2 weeks may have a degraded surface that is unsuitable for painting. Preparing the surface by sanding, brushing, and washing before applying the finish is recommended. Solid-Color Stains - http://www.wrcla.org/finishingcedar/exteriorfinishing/application.asp
   Solid-color stains may be applied to cedar by brush, roller, or pad. Brush application is usually the best. These stains act much like paint. One coat of solid-color stain is only marginally adequate on new wood. A prime coat with a top coat will always provide better protection and longer service. The best performance can be obtained if the wood is primed, then given two coats of stain. Top coats of 100% acrylic latex solid-color stains are generally superior to all others, especially when two coats are applied over a primer. The Truth About "Mill Glaze"
   - http://www.wrcla.org/finishingcedar/exteriorfinishing/surfacepreparation.asp
   Western Red Cedar is classified as a durable wood species, dimensionally stable, and suitable for a wide variety of coatings and finishes. It is these characteristics that make Western Red Cedar suitable for exterior use as decking, siding and many other applications. It has been proven through field studies and research that Western Red Cedar is an excellent substrate for coatings and finishes. When comparisons are made between Western Red Cedar and other wood species, Western Red Cedar outperforms them all. Poor practices at construction sites, building design, and improper installation all have a negative impact on the performance of Western Red Cedar and coatings applied to it. Many of the uninformed have attributed some coating failures on Western Red Cedar to "Mill Glaze". They state that a varnish like glazing of extractives, resins, and sap will develop on the surface of the wood during the planing process interfering with the adhesion of the coating. Western Red Cedar does not contain any sap or resins that can migrate to the surface. Western Red Cedar does contain extractives that make it resistant to insects and decay but they are not resinous or sap like. If Western Red Cedar became hot during the planning process, the surface would show burn marks. Researchers at the U.S. Forest Products Laboratory have not been able to duplicate paint failure by "glazing" at the surface. The typical scenario where a coating company will cite mill glaze as the cause for coating failure on Western Red Cedar siding is
   No primer
   One coat of solid color stain
   Spray applied
   Siding left exposed to the weather 4 weeks or more
   No building paper
   House with little or no overhang
   Siding delivered and stored unprotected on the ground where it took on moisture
   Siding not back-primed
   Blistering paint with water in the blisters One coating company attributed poor performance of their product on rough-sawn Western Red Cedar to mill glaze.

1. 
   Griff | Aug 31, 2005 03:52pm | #14

   Thanks Palatine,

   Thanks for the research and posting the response you received from the WRC Lumber Assn. Good information there.

   So, it looks a bit like some people may be passing the buck.  If it peels, a stain company will say it's improper preparation, specifically, failing to sand off mill glaze. But, the Lumber Association says there is no mill glaze and that the US Forest Products Lab has been unable to duplicate such a condition.

   Still, even the Lumber Association says scuff sand with 60 grit paper unless prolonged exposure of untreated siding has allowed the wood to become affected by the elements. And, back priming is recommended (tough to do when the siding has already been installed).

   Looks like you have some work cut out for you to prepare that siding properly. Some may even have to be replaced (esp on south and west exposures) so back priming of new wood can be accomplished). Is the HO up for this? Or, is he resigned to never ending failing and frequent scraping, sanding and re-staining?

    Griff

1. 
   palatine | Sep 02, 2005 04:29am | #15

   The HO is my father-in-law and I'm elected to fix the problem which he created it appears 20 years ago. I agree with all who say prep work is the key. Even in that there is some diasgreement as to what constitutes proper preparation.

1. 
   Griff | Sep 02, 2005 10:16am | #16

   Ah, the in laws. Gotta be the best clients in the world!

   Good luck.

   Ever consider renting one of those power scrapers for removing peeling paint from siding?

   Don't know how much they cost, or even how well it might work for you, but it has to beat standing on a ladder in the hot sun while you exhaust your upper arms scraping by hand. Has to be faster too.

   Don't suppose there was lead in 30 year old stain, was there?Griff

2. 
   palatine | Sep 02, 2005 03:30pm | #19

   Have you ever noticed that the family members you do free work for are the most particular?!No lead in the stain. I actually have access to one of those scrapers. It works great on non-cedar siding. I'm not sure if it will be too aggressive on cedar but I believe I will give it a try. I've also considerer taking it all off and reversing it. Now there 's a job.Has anyone used these power scrapers on cedar?

3. 
   Griff | Sep 02, 2005 05:02pm | #20

   Have you ever noticed that the family members you do free work for are the most particular?!

   Yeah, and the cheapest when it comes to compensation. Why you can give up your time - you married my daughter, the princess. Right!Griff

4. 
   Griff | Sep 02, 2005 12:05pm | #17

   Sorry, didn't remember your original post. You said the siding and stain were 20 years old, not the 30 years I asked about. I'm not an expert, but from what I've read I think it's probably safe to assume that there was no lead in stain 20 years ago, if the stain was newly purchased then.Griff

5. 
   edwardh1 | Sep 02, 2005 12:43pm | #18

   Hardie plank is $5 or so for an 8 inch wide preprimed cypress imprint piece, 12 ft long.No prep problems, or paint problems with peeling poping warping knots sap holes, bleed thru etc

3. 
   Frankie | Aug 28, 2005 08:01am | #5

   I have never applied Penetrol directly to the surface to be stained or painted. I am not saying you shouldn't, just that I never have or even seen it done.

   Seems like you are addressing the effect rather than the cause. You may get good at it because you will be repeating it every 3 or so years, but I think you will be better served if you concider the cause may have nothing to do with the paint, stain, penetrol or method and sequence of application.

   My guess - having no visual to comment on - is that you actually have a moisture problem. If the problem involves the entire side of the house, rather than say an area by the Bathroom, moisture is getting underneath the siding and not getting out. If the moisture was coming from the face - through the siding joints and such - it should be able to migrate out the same way.

   I suspect the moisture is getting behind the siding from above - maybe a poorly flashed roof or eaves that are not watertight. It is having a greater effect on the south and west sides of the house bescause they get heated up more, thereby allowing the water to penetrate the siding rather than condensing and rolling down the felt or other house wrap.

   My 2 cents,

   Frankie

   There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.

   —Hunter S. Thompson
   from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas

1. 
   palatine | Aug 29, 2005 03:14am | #9

   The solid colored "stain"used is oil based Sherwin Williams. Although it is failing mostly on the South and West the other two sides have minor problems. To me the stain is oil based liquid with chalk like substance to make it opaque when dry which doesn't adhere ot the wood. The comment about the factory glaze makes sense. The cedar is smooth side out not sanded but weathered for several months before applying a finish. I too think moisture may be a problem but I think it may be coming in thorough the "Stain" because it is in good shape on the upper boards that don't get the brunt of the weather. And because it doesn't form a surface like paint does.I'm afraid that restaining will be a waste of time. I hesitate to put paint over it for fear the stain under will continue to fail and I'll have the same problem in 3 years. I thought the penetrol might penetrate through this chalk and help provide moisture protection and bond the stain to the cedar? Maybe I'll experiment in a small area and see what happens.My other option is to scrape and sand the stuff off and start over. I'm trying to avoid this because I don't think I'' live long enough to finish the project!

1. 
   Piffin | Aug 29, 2005 03:45am | #11

   You definitely need to use sandpaper to open the pores, clean off the mill glaze, and give tooth to the new stain.I had a paint chemist tell me that solid colour stain is pigmented just like paint is and that the biggest difference is that the sc stain is always flat in textrue, while the paint can be gloss, semi-gloss, etc.Cedar. redwood, and fir all have resins that make it harder for surface finishes to adhere. Be sure to read ypour label and get a product specifically formulated for the cedar 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   Mongo | Aug 31, 2005 06:11am | #13

   Allowing the wood to weather for several months and then applying a solid-color stain is a recipe for failure.

   Weathered wood needs to be sanded, just like piffin mentioned.

   Then prime with an oil-based primer. Only prime for a solid-color, not for transparent or semi-transparent.

   After priming, topcoat with solid-color stain. If you spray, back-brush. If you roll, back-brush. Personally I skip the rollers and spray set-ups and just brush. With pump jacks and planking across the wall I can move fast.

   I've seen solid-color stains fail after a few years. My own house has solid-color and looks just like Day 1, and I put it on 10 years ago.

   It's all in the prep work.

   And in the details of the wall.

4. 
   prout35 | Aug 28, 2005 07:35pm | #7

   if its smooth cedar clapboard it starts out with a mill glaze on it that all paint and stain manufacturers tell you it has to be sanded off before any finish is applied. otherwise nothing sticks. even says so on the lumber rapper.