My plumber told me 9 months ago that he couldnt swear to it, but supply houses get better fixtures than “homo depot” and “blows”. It got me wondering to the point that I called 5 companies, PF, delta etc and they swore up and down that they sell the same product to both, supply houses and box stores. Which is the truth? I have a job going right now where he was needed, and He, (my plumber), was thumping on this Price Pfister faucet saying, “look at this junk, all plastic…my supply house doesnt sell this crap” (the homeowner picked up the faucet).
I have a bunch of faucets bought at Home depot and they all work fine.. just curious
Replies
"someone tell me the truth" ... Ok, you have bad breath and you're ugly.
I have heard those stories several times, usually about tools. Of course the mfgrs won't admit to it. The only way to tell would be to buy two identical items from a supplier and a big box, and be your own judge.
Do it right, or do it twice.
just what i know..... HD will rarely have to "beat a price by 10% if you find one lower" because they rarely have the same SKUs as anyone else (sku =stock keeping unit) they tell dewalt "yeah we want the 918dw but make ours a 919dw and include only one bit" they took the Rigid name and made it their own... now they brand everything... I know the guns you buy from a discounter in most cases are not the same gun you get from a good sporting goods store... the stock material and the finish are not the same the mod# stays the same... and yes they do sell more than a few tools below cost... but they get points, co-op ad dollars, and free goods... so they might sell a saw at cost... but dewalt could be running a deal where they give the dealer a cordless drill for every 3 saws they buy...
that being said... it use to be to get decent lighting fixtures you had to go to a lighting supply house and pay dearly for them... I've seen some pretty nice stuff at the big boxes... at 1/3 of the price
pony
Are the faucets better at a plumbing supply??? I have no idea.
Are Price Pfister faucets from Lowe's crap??? Absolutely.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
My humble Opionion, it is true, ie big Box sells "less than" products. Note: not all of their name brands, but by golly, a lot of their name brands products are made exclusivley for them, at "less than" quality. By the way, I've only gone to the Big Box, 4 times in my life, I refuse to go, unless their's is the only place I can get an item. I've heard too many horror stories.
HD actually posted a sign on one of their name brand toilets that said "made for HD".
I've installed the exact same Moen faucet in my home and in a customers that "they" bought at HD and I bought for myself at the plumbing supply house.
The guts in the faucet they bought from HD were plastic and the one I bought from my plumbing supply house was brass. End of story!
Be well informed
andy
My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
My brother, the plumber, warned me about this years ago, and I originally wrote it off as an urban legend, or something. I mentioned it to a coworker and he said that HD sells a stainless steel sink with an incredibly similar name to a sink he got through the plumbing supply with a drop in the gauge thickness....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
I noticed something similar ......... The Elkay sinks I was looking at online cost $300- $400, and are 18 gauge ............. I took a quick look online and saw that HD sells Elkay sinks for a lot less .......... at 22 GAUGE !! I didn't do any further looking, but a customer not paying close attention might think they saved $200 at HD, not realizing they just bought junk with the Elkay name on it.
Like Homebrew said, there is a difference between fixtures from HD and from a supply house - a world of difference, in my experience. The better stuff goes in easier and just feels better than the cheap stuff. You can tell the difference, even though they may be the same size. Of course this comes at a price.
I might also mention that the last time I needed an odd size Elkay sink the supply house called to the factory warehouse, found me the unit I wanted and picked it up with their truck so I could have it the same day. Don't expect that at your local big box.
Rich.
If you go to the moen website, you can build your own faucet. Depending on how you do it, there are two completely different sets of part numbers, one for when it is sold through big box stores, one when it is sold through plumbing wholesalers.
The last time I suffered through a 'fall home show' consumer tradeshow, the HD display had a really cheap (price-wise) Jacuzzi whirlpool tubs. They were about half the price than anything we had found at the show rooms. The booth rep explained that it was a model designed exclusively for Home Depot and due to high volume orders they can sell it at a steep discount.
That may be true. Or maybe it just uses cheaper materials. Both are very plausible. ;o)
BTW, this is an excellent article about giant retailers and the power they have over manfucturers. It comes down to a 'damned if you do/damned if you don't' proposition for the manufacturers as to whether or not they sell through the big boxes:
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html
After reading that article, I think it makes perfect sense for these companies to manufacture a cheaper clone of their products exclusively for the big-boxes. It's a bit risky (read the analysis of Levi's selling in Wal-Mart in the article above), but better than selling their high-quality stuff at a much smaller (if any) profit margin.
I bought a Bostich spiker at home despot a couple of weeks ago. While surfing the web I came across the stanley/bostich site and mysteriously can't find my model # there.HMMMMM
..........Rik............
The concept isn't just with big box type stores. For example, Ingersoll Rand goes out to motor manufacturers for the long term supply of electric motors for their compressors; IR will generate a spec of what they want, and what they expect to pay. It's up to the motor manufacturers to find a way to meet it. Therefore the motors are made as cheaply as possible, nothing like what you buy elsewhere.
Great article Darrel.
i got that HD whirlpool, its .............. O.K. nothing special
The best employee you can have but you wouldn't want him as a neighbor " He the shifty type"
Are you talking about the cartridge in the Moen? Or something else.
When did you get yours and when did your customer get his?
The Moen Magnum cartridge used to be all brass and quite a while ago they changed it to all plastic. We are still talking about factory parts.
two thoughts
1. advantage of the box stores is that ( I think) they charge most everyone the same price). Supply houses say "OH, you are not a "pro"? with an account?? we'll raise the price of your hot water heater by 25% or whatever.
2, Some companies tinker with the product to please the stockholders this quarter. owner of local hardware store said Myers pumps company did that a few years back - had been family owned - good product, went public, rushed to raise profits, cheapened pumps by reducing output so that they could spec a weaker motor.
he makes money putting the new pumps back to pumping like the older ones do.
Supply houses don't raise the price of there materials for homeoners or non-contractors. They give the contractor a break on there prices because the plumbing contractor is going to buy 20 hot water heaters a year for 20 to 30 years plus buy sinks, faucets,etc. for as long as the contractor does business with the supply house. The supply house wants to keep the contractors coming back; one homeowner buying one hot water heater does not earn a discounted price.
On top of that as a contractor you need to do a certain amount of business with the suppliers & the lumberyards to earn that contractor discount. The suppliers are looking to form a relationship with the contractors a homeowner walking in looking for a discounted price & whining that "Oh I need to be a pro to get a discount" is not looking to form a relationship with the supply house - they just want a discount and then they want to complain when they don't get one. A pro walks in asks for a discount & is told to open an account & once you do x amount of business you get the price break. The pro doesn't complain -he either does business with them or he does'nt.
cartridge.Nipples where you screw the feeds to etc etcMy life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Very interesting discussion. "Corporate Brands" is not a new phenomenon, we used to call it Generic. For many products the difference in the quality is not an issue (food, health & beauty) about the only difference is the sizes of the product. If you co to COSCO or Sam's Club most everything is packaged in larger sizes or in bulk packaging.
For "hard goods" the invention and explosion of the Big Box has had a much different impact. First, you almost never see the same product ID, as noted previously. This is done primarily to track sales to a given retailer, but also to make comparison shopping a hell of a lot harder. There are also special promotion items that you most often see around the holidays. The packaging of these items typically hook the consumer.
The primary driver is the consumer. We have, as consumers, said that price is our primary criteria in purchasing. (We want to think it's quality, but it's price) The retailers evaluate "price points" and margin. For example, if their research shows that consumers want a bathroom faucet that costs $10 the Big Box wants $10 faucets to sell. If the Big box wants a 50% margin the manufacturer needs to find a way to profitably make that faucet for $5, including their profit. If that faucet has historically cost $5 in material and labor the manufacturer is faced with either reducing manufacturing costs or not making money. Given that so many companies are publicly owned, the shareholders wouldn't tolerate non-profit status for long. So, you use cheaper materials and you source production to lower cost countries. If you historically put a gasket that would last 10 years you go for one that only lasts 5 but cost 30% less.
Consumers have "told" retailers that they want LOW PRICES. Hopefully someday we will realize what we have done.
Price Pfister......
The Pfugged up Pfaucet
that Pfalls apart after Pfive months
With the Pfunny Name!
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Last Pf-F I installed was solid brass everywhere; well built and well finished. $300 retail remaindered at $150 (which is why I bought it for the client).
Why was it on the 'final sale/discontinued model' shelf?
The BB had slipped a digit when ordering and gotten one meant for the plumbing supply house, at twice the cost. None of their customers would pay retail on that cost, so it sat there for two years, then they bit the bullet and my customer got lucky....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
the problem with some supply houses is they do not want the diyer trade, they eat their lunch when they come in. Some are nice and helpful put others if you do not have a company account " Sorry, we cannot help you, we sell wholesale only" and then you stuck with the big box. The Huges supply here will run you out the door.
The best employee you can have but you wouldn't want him as a neighbor " He the shifty type"
supply houses get fixtures that have brass and metal fittings. Whereas the big boxes get fixtures that have plastic fittings.
They spec those with plastic nuts and plastic threaded female parts to get the cost down.
While the majority of the fixtures are the same the guts and the connections are a lesser grade then supply houses. Its all about cost and relative value.
My shower faucet was leaking, destroyed the ceiling in my daughter's bedroom (below) and the rug in my son's bedroom (adjacent) before either of them bothered to mention it (grrrrr) .... went to Home Depot and said "my shower valve is leaking, it's a Symmons Temptrol ..." and before I finished the sentance, the guy reached behind him and said "you need one of these" .... he was exactly right, as it turns out - said they fail on a regular basis .... $5 part, pain in the a$# to install, hundreds of dollars worth of damage, 8 year old house .... jeez .... just had to vent .... Bill.
Its not just the HD's and the Lowe's, Best Buy sells a Maytag appliance that is made just for them, as well as other appliance manufacturers. Its everywhere, just have to look close.
Doug
I really don't know about any of this. I shop at HD and Lowes because they usually have hard to find items. Not that they are easy to find there either.
All I do know is that I just opened a box of Queen Anne Cherries and the whole dang top layer is melted. Maybe Wal-Mart is doing the same.
Well guess I'll just have to lick my fingers.
My experience, I'm not a plumber, from several years as a general maintenance man has been that if you compare the exact same model and part numbers the legend is not true. If you pay attention, to part numbers and small details, you can spot the cheapies.
HD and others carry low end models that many supply houses will not. Many of these low end units look much the same as the mid and high end products but the details, if your paying attention, are different. The part numbers also differ. The irony is that the big boxes also carry the mid and some of the high end units that are identical to much of what the supply houses carry.
Lesson being that if you buy a a fixture that is half what the mid range unit is going for your going to get a product of generally lesser quality than a more expensive fixture. Doesn't matter if you buy it from a supply house, if they carry low end units at all, or a big box. The general outside appearance matters even less unless your a careful observer. If you fall for the cheap up front cost you get what you pay for.
I have seen the same thing in electrical fixtures. I have been playing an almost exclusive electrical role for some years now. People turn up their noses at the mid priced fixtures to save a few dollars. Sometimes this makes sense but all too often it comes back to bite them when these fixtures fall apart, discolor or otherwise fail in a few months. Time and again they save five dollars at the check out only to have to pay someone $70 per hour to replace with a better quality unit. Plus the price of a replacement fixture.
At a supply house I'm paying for things you can't get as a big box. Things like: The ability to call in an order using the vernacular shorthand and terms of art common to trades and have the order correctly pulled and waiting when I arrive.
A credit for having a long standing relationship with the supplier. Negotiable.
A substantial discount when I consistently order $100,000 or more for five years straight. Again, negotiable.
Backing and support going to manufacturers with complicated technical questions about the application and installation of their products. Many times the supply house will bird dog the MSDS, spec sheet or special requirements for unusual situations.
Help, sometimes many hours of it, tracking down replacement for obsolete equipment or rare and unusual equipment. I ask. They hunt. Exotic stuff demands a premium so they make out well.
Many supply houses will not carry the cheapest crap. They know they will see it again attached to an irate tradesman that has leverage, an account worth tens of thousands of dollars and the knowledge and the vocabulary, to make their displeasure crystal clear.
This last point may be the grain of truth behind the mythology. Big boxes will sell you, if you are silly enough, substandard crap at a very attractive, dirt cheap, price. They will also sell you good quality fixtures, plumbing or electrical, if you are willing to pay a bit more for quality.
I have found it to be true that the Big Boxes sell what appear to be similar items for less, and the Models numbers are close, maybe with an H or something added. It looks the same, but the guts are cheaper. That is why I never buy that stuff from those stores, only from authorized suppliers.
Also, I make it very clear in my contracts that neither I nor my subs will be responsible for anything the owner supplies directly. I will not spend 6 hours on the phone trying to get replacement parts for something the owner saved money on, and I didn't make anything on. That should be covered by my overhead %, and why I buy quality goods.When all else fails, use duct tape!
Ok I only read the first 5 or so post and jump right to posting!!
Had this very discussion with the manager at the plumbing supply house near me that is right around the corner from HD. He has people (likely home owners) come in and ask if he will match HD prices on a regular basis. He always says yes! If it’s an IDENTICAL product. Actually had one individual purchase a Delta faucet at HD and brought it to his store. The product numbers were the same between his and HD except for one letter at the end. The HD Delta had more plastic.
He also told me even though the two stores are less than ½ mile apart they are serviced by separate sales reps for many lines that both carry.
That's how the business works; the big boxes determine what price levels they want to run with, and the manufacturers build product to suit. And the manufacturers' reps are different, because handling the supply houses is a different world from the corporate type accounts of a HD type store.
Generally speaking, if something is a lot cheaper, there's a reason for it. Simple as that.