A quiet room was installed in our church and does not seem to do its job. One area is the doors which were installed too high. another is no sound insulation in the ceiling. These are fixable. One other area is a rounded wall with two layers of 1/4″ GWB that borders on the sanctuary space. the architect did not spec any sound batting for this wall. My question, is there any effective insulation that can be poured down the cavity between the studs or any such method that can remedy this situation. The use or purpose for this whole area is suspect without rectifying the problems with the sound suppression.
Thank You for any inputs.
Jay
Replies
If you could gain access to the cavity you could certainly pour (or, better, blow) cellulose into it. WIth a blower you could work fhrough a few small holes.
quiet room was installed
"Sounds' like just a plain old room, just 1/4 WB ! ohhh, my, but 1/4 was easier to bend, blah, blah, Archy speced nothing in ceiling, ugh, time for new archy? .
IF you have time and the base of the wall is on a slab, you could pour about 4-5" at a time of a grout (sand and plaster one of easier options) , let it set, pour next layer. That will be a good acoustic transmission barrier. If over a wood joist floor, you would have to calculate the weight and location to see if structurally feasible.
For future reference, for a wall to be effictive at cutting sound, it should have 1/2 WB on one side and 5/8 on the other side, with offset stud separate for each wall. The different thicknesses have a different resonance to avoid that path. Space between filled with a heavy fiber (rock wool vs. cellulose), any ducting between rooms should have multi-tubular decoupler, etc..
To be fair - there are two layers of 1/4" on each side of the wall. All of the other appropriate walls in the building have the sound batts installed. The architect left out the drawing in the batts on the section of the rounded walls so they never were installed and no one caught it until now. Will the cellulose make a noticable difference?
Are there any windows / glass in these interior walls? Split jambs with gaskets on both the doors and windows, if any, would have helped a lot.
Mass in/on the walls should have been figured. After filling with cellulose, double up the drywall. There is a product used also-homasote-to both add mass and separation that could have been installed first b/4 drywall.
Soft finishes will help also-carpet, cloth furniture, drapes, all will pick up / dampen sound vibrations.
The area in question is complicated. Part of the room that over looks the sanctuary has a wall made of arxx blocks( no sound transmission) but then there is a viewing window that I thought should be insulated glass, but since one way glass doesn't come in insulated panals theyjust put in laminated glass and said we would see how that works. at the end of the arxx block wall there is a door to the fellowship hall and that is where the rounded uninsulated wall starts. At the present time it looks like cellulose will be the easiest application and we are thinking maybe wew could hang a quilt with some batting behind that to further block the sound. We are three weeks away from our first sevice with all of the thousands of last minute details including moving in. Time is an issue especially when the architect and contractor have this wait and see attitude.
On the note about the window. I am very unhappy with the oneway glass. The room needs to be darkened so much in order to have the privacy of the mirrorred effect that it becomes a safety issue. Is there an actual mirror-type one way glass that isn't completely dependant on light. We had a blind installer who is a retired sheriff and he said they had an interogation room that was not light dependant. Any feedback?
The window:
You definetly want 2 panes. Make the 2nd pane a different thickness than the one-way mirrored surfaced pane.
They do not have to be sealed as in exterior 'insulated' glass
Also, the separator between the panes should be tapered - eg. narrower at one edge.
The different pane thicknesses helps prevent sound transmission by having different resonant frequencies (think of the panes as big drum heads) and the taper reduces direct compressive sound transfer.
Since you are not yet 'moved in', have the archy eat the cost of tearing off one side of the 1/4" drywall and installing dual stud systems and heavy batting and rebuilding the wall. Wet down some 5/8" firecode sheetrock to bend and install on the demoed side.
first I need to find the correct glass. Then I can deal with a different thickness for the other pane. The distance between the panes will only be able to be about 3/4" max.
Removing the wall at this time will probably not happen considering the state we are in - ie: everything will have to go through committee for resolutions concerning money expenditures. I just donm't see it happening knowing the people I need to work with. The cellulose will be an easier sell. Especially when I throw in we need to change the glass.
I hope the situation might be handled by some sound batting on the inside of the wall behind a quilt. Keeping in mind a church can act as one of the most dysfunctual families you know of. With 100's of opinions not just 3,4or 5. If you hear anything about a type of glass I can use let me know.
Thanks
Window-
I don't remember if I mentioned it-there should be a slight "V" formed by the two panes.
This I guess, so the sound that does bounce off the hard surface-is directed away from directly transfering the vibes to the other pane.
Usual insulated glass wouldn't help much. The sound studios we worked on had these set to a cushioned split jamb. The 2 part jamb was cushioned where they joines, as well as the stops that held the glass (both sides of both panes).
Split jamb on solid core doors was also the method used. Again, with a cushion between the jambs as well as the stops.
Can't give you any word on mirror glass.
The floor surface in the room? Carpet helps dampen sound . What's the ceiling?
As far as dealing with all those that have an opinion.................best of luck with that. They usually are the first to question and the last to help.
I do work for a couple churches-luckily their board members make the decisions and rely upon a "facilities manager" to guide them in the process. I deal with him-make my suggestions, he presents to the board, they make the say and dole out the fundage.
I've "organized" for a couple groups. The parent groups are the worst I've come across. Made some lifelong friends out of our association, as well as hardened lifelong enemies.....................I've got two words for them.
If this is for kids, might suggest homasote "boards" where artwork etc could be pinned to it. Hang those with standoffs as panels on the wall. I've covered them with self healing cloth-much like a nice looking "burlap". This will dampen the sound while keeping the vibes from hitting the hard drywalled walls.
If you can absorb as much as possible b/4 it hits the walls, mass becomes a bit less critical.
The Catholic church I work in, I asked the priest for a dispensation from genuflecting (sp?). Being a reformed catholic, I wasn't sure if I'd have to take a knee on my way in with material.
I dont' think he asked the pope, but granted me immediate immunity.
dispensation from genuflecting
Lutherans only bow, and only during services. <G>
If there were such a thing as true one-way glass it would make Maxwell's demon very happy. To date he's not had much luck.
(You can get coated glass that is highly reflective, without as much light loss as "dumb" mirrored glass, but it's incredibly expensive and easily scratched.)
(Just to understand, is the intent of the room to keep the sound of screaming children out of the sanctuary? Our church has a "cry room" that seems to work pretty well, and I don't think any exotic construction techniques were used on it.)
Sorry for the delay in my response - I'm trying another supplier for what he represents as oneway glass to see if there is a difference in what we have installed.
I'm fed up with the lack of attention to the issue from our architect and contractor. Yes, it is a nursery/ quiet/ crying room. The problem here is it does not work well because the issues were not addressed adequately during the construction phase.
I have decided to take the bull by the horns and push for the cellulose blown into where it can be placed. Then have the proper barriers of sound batting installed in the ceiling and adjoining walls.
Then we'll see what that does.
Jay
I had a thought to pass along about the window.
Is a window really necessary? I've been in churches that had "cry rooms" with closed circuit TVs so the momns could hear & see what's going on.
Don't know if that's an option in your case. Just figured I'd toss it out just in case it hadn't crossed your mind.
On the other hand, our church has a cry room with a big window -- maybe 12 feet across -- that is maybe 3' sections separated by about 4 inches of wall. Appears to be normal safety glass.
But I suppose it is true that the sound level in the sanctuary is high enough (not all the fussy kids are in the cry room) that a little noise transmissioin would not be noticed.
Church is built and in it's final stages of completion. Punch lists are being developed tomorrow. The window in question is framed into an ARXX block wall with a good vantage point to the sanctuary. Concept was privacy for a young mother with an infant still nursing. Just trying to finish up with my priorities of function of the space before the contractors leave. That is why I don't have a lot of time at this juncture, because of my own commitments, to do my own research. As the pastor's spouse it will all come to my door eventually if things don't work. I appreciate any helpful comments.
Thanks
I think you may be overestimating the degree of sound isolation required. During the service next weekend just sit and listen to the ambient level in the sanctuary -- if it's at all like ours it's really pretty noisy even without fussy kids, and add a few of those and a little noise leakage from the cry room will not be noticed.
Sound transmission
The transmission of sound is enabled by vibration.
The most efective sound insulation is solid concrete, next comes bricks and blocks.
The most effective sound insulation is a vacuum. After that likely comes lead. (Depleted uranium is too hard and likely transmits more sound than lead, in spite of it's higher mass.)