Hi all, came over from Knots.
I am planning a new woodshop, and soundproofing will be a big challenge since it will be in a residential area. I’ve been reading a lot here about methodology, etc., here at Breaktime so I have an idea of what’s involved. My next question is cost.
In the midwest, what can I expect to pay for a floating wall (staggered 2×4 studs with 2×6 plates)? How does this compare with using resilient channels and doubling up the sheetrock?
I hope a few builders have done this and give me some insight. I won’t be doing the work myself.
Thanks.
Replies
Biggest bang for your buck will be homasote under the sheetrock, and fiberglass between the studs and joists.
Mike:
Can you tell me if this is effective to seal a one-man shop running at 10 pm maybe 100 ft from the neighbors? From what I've read, it appears two of the most effective methods is decoupling the walls using staggered studs or resilient channels. And these are things that I'd rather not redo once the shop is built and alternate methods are deficient.
a WW shop most of the noise is high frequency (saw, sanding, duct collectors). Any good solid construction will work. Dense pack cels insulton would be great for this.
Your biggest problem will with openings, doors and windows.
I tried to "sound proof" an interior office wall with homosote under the GWB and FG insulation. There was limited room between two windows in a brick structure. It helped but did not work. 1" styrofoam under the GWB helps more, also adds some R-value. Doors and windows are tough unless you are willing to cover them while working. Woodworking isn't as noisy as most lawnmowers. To really get soundproof you need a room within a room. Lie Neilsen is building some new shops with Arxx styrofoam concrete forms. I'm sure they will be quiet but more expensive than just adding 1" under the GWB.
I think the resilient channels will be as effective as the staggered studs, but use as heavy a gypbd as you can handle... it's the dead weight that counts. In fact, the best material for controlling the sound would be to build the whole thing out of block and fill the voids with masons sand.
Also suggest "Tectum" panels be used on the ceiling (edge to edge) and on the walls as "decorative" elements (cut into 24" squares, glue-up). You can add these as conditions warrant.
This discussion has focused on the wall construction, but we need to start at the beginning. The woodshop must be seen as a "system", consisting of walls and openings (windows, door, vents, etc. Sound waves, like electricity, seek the path of least resistance. You can spend a fortune on the walls, but the system is only as good as the weakest link, most likely any doors or windows. Locate opening away from your neighbors, and consider roof windows/skylights rather than placing the windows in the walls.
Also consider interior sound levels... preserve your hearing and sanity. Any hard surface material will reflect sound, hence the tectum suggestion.
A more abstract, but very important issue in interior sound control is the "room cavity ratio," essentially the relationship between the length, width and height of the space. If you post your anticipated interior dimensions, I will gladly calculate the room cavity ratio for you and if necessary suggest alternate dimensions.
Edited 9/17/2004 1:38 pm ET by David
Edited 9/17/2004 1:48 pm ET by David
I think in retrospect that the Bill Hartman really has the right answer. We, especially myself, are getting into overkill. I just did a little experiment. I turned on my table saw and dust collector in the garage (attached) and went into the house. I can only hear the tools running when in the room with the door connecting the house and garage. When in the living roon, which is separated from the garage by a 2x4 wall, insulated, 1/2" gyp each side the tools are barely audible.
You can hear them outside the garage door, which is not well sealed. Walking to the end of the driveway (about 40') I can't hear the tools without a cupped hand to my ear. Going to sidewall of the garage (2- small windows), nothing is heard about 16' away.
Unless you are running multiple tools at a time, just build an old fashioned 2x4 or 2x6 wall w/ batts, use 5/8" gyp on the inside. If you have a noisy dust collector, place it in a corner and build an enclosure wall/door around it. I would suggest 24" stud spacing, saving 33% in material and labor, and giving you more insulation. Spend your money elsewhere!
Much appreciate your reply. I think though that a tablesaw is much louder when it is cutting. Also think about a planer...say 15"...cutting hardwood.
I do realize that there are other factors involved: I am not planning to have windows, orienting the doors right, using landscaping, etc. Since I am pretty confident the builder we are talking to has no real soundproofing experience, I'd like to know from people who've tried these specific techniques before I insist on them, and pay the premium for them.
I told him I want to be able to fire off a 50 cal in my shop and not hear a thing outside :) And from his solution, I am not sure it will cut it. I will be working mostly in the evenings, where sound will carry much further.
I really want to be a good neighbor and not give them any reason to impede my work. Belive me, I'd rather spend my money of tools.
Oh yeah, my shop dimensions will be 48x28x9. I am curious as how you'd calculate acoustics on just the dimensions alone. Won't it be affected by tool placement too?
Thanks.
Edited 9/17/2004 6:25 pm ET by TUFENHUNDEL
If you will be working mostly after dark, reduce the total windows and make MDF interior shutters to cover the remaining ones while you work. Those windows, and the doors, are your weak links. The garage door is the hardest to treat. Weatherstrip helps with the high frequency whine, but you need mass to stop the rumble. The planer is super loud unless you have a spiral/helical cutterhead. The first time I ran my 20" planer, a neighbor a mile away commented to another neighbor that, "Bill sounds like he bought a planer." The door was open, but still....
Maybe a temp noise wall erected inside the overhead door when doing the loudest stuff? Dust collection raises the noise of a straight-knife planer appreciably. Good luck with your shop.
Bill
The heavy gypd on metal sound attenuation furring (z furring) is very effective. I have used it about 60 times with good results.
A room cavity ratio calculation meaures the tendency of sound to "bounce around" or off adjacent surfaces, so the location of the sound source is not an issue.
David:
Can you tell me how much of a premium it was over a regular 2x4 standard wall, e.g., 10%, 30%, etc.? Or how much you'd charge for stagered stud construction?
I consider it to be no more than 5% more than a conventional wall construction or ay less than staggered stud, because staggered stud requires 2x as many studs. If 24" OC, you are really building 2 walls, on to the outside, one to the inside, meaning it is equivalent to studs 1' OC. The only additional requirement is furring and thicker drywall.
But... you said fire off a 50 cal inside!! If that is the standard, ANY FRAMED system is out. You MUST go masony (CMU).
See http://www.maconline.org/tech/materials/ssdata.html and click on the PDF article.
I agree with you that it's not that loud. But at night I like to build without wincing every time I do something loud. I don't like to oppologize for working.
It's also what kind of noise. If it's a lwn mower people won't bat an eye. but if it's woodworking and you are making any money at it you will probably get grief for it.
precisely
Resilient channel, two layers of wallboard, staggered for seams. Accoustical caulk top and bottom of wall. Sound proof insulation, called rotten cotton in these parts, don't know actual name. Homasote on ceiling. This method will get better results than staggered stud installation.Make sure contractor uses accoustical caulk, regular caulk is not as effective as the accoustical stuff.I believe you mentioned in another post that you will not have windows. If this is for security reasons , I understand. If this is for soundproofing abilities , I personally would put windows in, good ones with a storm sash. You will get sound transmission thru the glass, but I do not think it will be enough for your neighbors to upset with. You can close off the windows with mdf as another post mentioned and homosote on top of the mdf.Hinge the panel and keep closed with a slide bolt.
When I was much younger, I had a neighbor that complained about every thing and everybody. When I started working in my garage shop on weekends I made a glider swing for her. She had one that fell apart from age and weathering.She complained about the noise each time I went in the shop. She called the cops on me several times, after the first time the police would call me and let me know she was complaining again. One morning when the swing was completed, I got her sons to help move the swing onto her porch.
This was the first time she knew what the noise was all about, never had a complaint from the lady again in the ten years I lived next to her.I made a number of inexpensive things for all the neighbors, the glider wasn't cheap , but worth the effort.
mike
Exellent! I must also include a neighbor pacification program in the soundproofing suite.
Question just entered: Will I have any problems hanging tool cabinets and the like on a resilient channel wall? Seems the screws will have to go through wood, would this not defeat the isolation measure?
Do a google on STC numbers and STC assemblies.
STC - sound transmission control or something such.
You will find all kinds of details and exactly how much sound control each adds.
Might as well spend the money on what works best.
Use EZ anchors into the double rock, they look like a screw, they hold a lot of weight.Easy to install, do a google search for EZ anchor and the load limits for different sizes are listed.You could install 1/2" Osb or plywood instead of the first layer of rock. Then you just use appropiate size screws. Not sure if the soundproofing would be affected, if at all.
mike