Have a customer that wants 30′ X 100′ kennel barn for dogs. (about 50+ of them). Have the design made for that layout. Also wants to live on an upper floor (DONT ASK WHY)….design for that is easy. Now…..How to sound proof floor to floor? Thought about conventional joist span (yes there is a partition) andsound proofing with either a sound mat, closed cell foam, etc. Then thought about moisture from below, ie the kennels, and thought about structural concrete across. then the living space…
Anybody had a similar situation or any ideas…Heard of some folk living above horse barns/stables. If so, was moisture a prob.? (They are moving up from Tennessee, to Eastern WA to get away form the humidity.) Does that sound mat work well? Would concrete slab make for even louder acoustics upstairs, even though it is solid? Thought I’d ask your your input….Thanks
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The "Z" strapping has worked wonders for floor to floor sound deadening. Also a sound insulation wool between floors. As far as a vapour barrier, treat the barn as the exterior and the flat up stairs as the interior. The barn can then be kept at a lower temp.
Sounds like a commercial kennel operation. The lower kennel portion may indeed be kept at a lower temperature than the residence above it, but I would expect that they will also use a lot of water to keep the kennel area clean. I think I would discuss the kennel operation with them and make my decision on a vapor barrier placement based on the area with the higher potential moisture. Exhaust fans and dehumidifiers in the kennel will help, but there goes any heat durring the winter months.
I think that the general concensus has been that mass= sound proofing, from other post on the subject. The concrete floor you mentioned would provide the mass, so that may be the place to start. Limit the number of floor penetration and set up some type of air lock foyer between the two spaces to reduce the noise and air exchanges between floors.
If the kennel has a concrete floor I would also be interested in what type of sealer you use on it. 50 dogs, means a lot of urine and poop. Once that smell gets in a slab, the building would be usless for anything but another kennel if they ever move agian.
We raise and show Cardigan Welch Corgis, and have had as many as eight to ten dogs at any one time. Keeping them quite in a subdivision took a lot of training. Keeping 50 dogs quite in a commercial operation would be darn near impossible. I hope thier nearest neighbor is a long way off.
There are a lot of other issues that you will need to address with an operation of that size. Health and safety issue, as well as the logistics of building.
Good luck.
Dave
Thanks for the input. I've advised them that not only are they looking at logistics here, but we need to check into the county building dept, health dept, and everyone else too. In my dealings with the various agencies, I can't see them saying that it's OK to bring in 50+ dogs from out of state without any issues to be addressed. I agree with you 100% Thanks
We have a kennel partner in Main that had a similar facility built when they put an addition on thier home. Thiers is a hobby kennel, much smaller scale. They use radiant heat (electric) I believe, and like it a lot. We did not discuss sound proofing, but agian, scale of operation and breed type make a difference.
When you get to the design phase, consider pouring or laying an 8 inch concrete block curb at the dog pen area. Above that use stsndard frame construction with the interior covered with durarock and tile or exterior grade plywood. Tile is my preferance to a height of at least 4 feet. Use vinyl coated chain link an pain all galvanize post with the best epoxy coating you can find. Exterior run access doors are a real energy thief. I'll look up our source for a drop type that we are going to put in our kennel. These can be operated with a pully system from outside the pen, so they don't have to go into 50 seperate gates to let each dog out.
It sounds like they know what they want, and probably have considered a lot of the problems that occure when building for dogs. As thier builder, you may not even know what question to ask to farret out these potential issues. Think like a dog. If you can eat it, chew on it, dig it up, wiz on it, or pull it apart... it is a building problem.
Be clad to share my experiences with you, and offer you any of the resource information we have.
Dave
Anything you got as far as paint names, trade name of items would be appreciated. I agree about thinking like a dog. Definitely going to slope away to the outside, minimize any sharp corners where Poo can collect during cleaning, large septic systems outside with concrete troughs to slope into. Concrete walls up ~4' for spray, etc. then framing. "Super Suck/Blow" ventilation system of some sort. Etc, etc,etc. THanks for any info....
PostnBeam; The American Groomers/Kennel Association? has a booklet or book for sale covering all the special needs of building for this intended use. I've been told it is very helpful. There are architechs (sp) who specialize in animal facilities.
As mentioned above, special health and sanitation considerations are needed. Animal care and Human health must be considered. Old Dog
Thaks for the lead!
Sorry to be so tardy with a follow up. Here are a couple of sites to look at: vertical sliding doors(KENL-DOR)-----masonco.com
kennel cages & accessories--------horstcompany.com
nonslip coating(like RhinoLiner)----Nonslipcoating.com
Horst Co. also does kennel design. They have the CAD software for it and it may be worth the money, once you have the building design firmed up, to have them do the kennel layout package.
With that many dogs there will be a need for isolation panels, quarentine rooms, welping areas, and a lot more I can't even think of right now. We have at least one book on kennel design, maybe more, and as soon as I dig them out, I'll e-mail you the titles.
Dave
Don't know how expensive or practical it might be, but I had a thought.
Would spancrete work for the 2nd floor system? I would think it had plenty of mass to absorb sound. Not sure if it would be tight enough to keep the smell out of the house, though.
I agree with you that it would be better to have the dogs in a separate structure. But I also understand that people get wierd ideas in their heads and won't listen to reason. So one other thought comes to mind.
Would they go for maybe putting part of the living quarters over their garage? At least then you wouldn't have the noise problem. And part of the kennel could be one story, which could allow for skylights to keep the doggies happy.
A couple of years ago, I did trusses for a house for an older lady who had a truckload of dogs. There were 3 rooms laid out in the front of the house that were specifically for the dogs. One was a sun room with lots of windows. Don't remember what the 2nd one was called. The 3rd one was the "kitchen", complete with a wet bar.
The plans called for these rooms to be separated from the rest of the house by "dutch pocket doors". That woman had more money than sense.
I spilled spot remover on my dog. He's gone now.
Thant's maybe what I was thinking BH. Spancrete or something along that lines. Yeah, you seem to know where I'm coming from....$$$ vs Sense vs Idea. Oh well..thanks for the tips.
I thought you might like to hear my normal answer . Money investment . How are they going to retain the cost of this building ? Who else in town would want it ? If I were the realator I would be thinking it would be a hard place to move. I can see a commercial kennal , with land enough to build a vet clinic . I dont know the location, but a house on top of a kennel would be risky. I see a kennel out back of a nice house fronting the property in a comercial atmosphere.
I also realize you are just wanting to build it , so Im off subject . Sorry .
Tim Mooney
Would be nice if you could build both separate.
Seems I recall that many Alpine houses from the 1800's and earlier 1900's were built with the idea of housing livestock, e.g., cattle, goats, sheep, etc., on the ground floor, and human habitation above-- the idea being that heat from the animals warmed upper floors, and that the animals were safely housed during winter when harsh winters, snowdifts and so on would make outside living and caring for the livestock near impossible. I know nothing about building houses, but this seems like it might have some parallels and therefore worth investigating for historical precedents, problem solving and tips. A Google search on historical Swiss/Austrian/Italian rural Alpine architecture might be interesting. Slainte, RJ.
Concrete between levels seems to be the quietest, just think about hotel rooms or condo's built that way. Another concern would be smell, so I would suggest no interior entrance to the kennel from above. Also would suggest that window placement is going to be very critical, for noise and odor both. Make sure that somebody considers the prevailing winds, that in Eastern Washington can be a difficulty worth considerring before the construction starts. Sounds like an intriguing project, good luck. My neighbors have proven that air movement is definetly a concern for those of us that believe you should pickup after your dogs. Just thoughts.
Dan
fageddabowed the soundproofing. Just feed dem mutts peanut butter, shut's 'em right up.
no turn left unstoned
ROTFL!
Thanks for all the input. The homeowners are an older couple, and LOVE their dogs. After our last discussion today, re: resale, noise, etc...."We don't give a rat's A$# what other people think....this is our place!"
Hmmmmmmm. O.K. Methoughts.. So, found 32 acres for them on a hilltop in the country..rolling hills, few piney trees, ponds, etc....1K/acre. Water good, power good, road needs work.....going over to look at tomorrow.
So back to the point, reason for one structure, their thought, was cost savings. I pointed out that with the involvement of sound, smell, sight, etc. considerations, and addressing those issues, we would be dang close to having two separate structures done for close to the same. Resale too is better. Also no stairs for older generation. But they are pretty stuck on their vision..I am just stuck on making sure this is what they want and for them to be happy. (cust. satisf.) I agree with all of your points, and thanks for the lead on overseas dealings with these matters. Also...didn't think of the saturation of smell into the concrete...thanks..I'll look into some industrial sealers. They were asking about radiant floor heating for the dogs in the concrete...1 for warmth in winter, 2 for the drying effect of the water from cleaning. Anyone done this???
They currently have a 50 X 80 foot kennel operation now...divided kennels down each side, with a center strip for washing, cleaning, vet checks, etc.; then independant runs going thru the eave walls for each divided stall to the outside. Have a HUGE air cond. unit now that runs constantly, ($650/mo), but the humidity apparently is so high that the water just sits on the chain link and never dries down there. (Today was 105 on heat index, with 100% humidity.)
Trying to come up with some other solutions for them...you guys have been great for that.