Spar Varnish on bar – help me finish up
I’ve stained a maple bartop using the wipe on ML Campbell (Woodsong) products. The stain is the best I’ve ever used. Nice even coloring, still pretty transparent.
Grain didn’t raise at all, so an hour later I brushed on the first coat of Spar Varnish (High Gloss). I put the second coat on a day later and now we’re ready for the last coat and I’ve got a couple of questions.
1. We’re planning on lightly sanding before the last coat. Should I use 220 grit and just hand sand, or should I go finer? The finish as is is pretty decent, but still a few nibs and boogers here and there.
2. The High Gloss varnish is exactly that: highly glossy. Perhaps a little too shiny for my taste. If I bump down to Satin on the last coat, are there any consequences? This is a bar top and so will be subject to abuse. Would the Satin finish be durable enough?
3. In lieu of finishing up with Satin, would anyone advise finishing with High Gloss and then rubbing out with pumice or rottenstone? I’ve read about the technique, but never done it before. Any advice?
Thanks, all.
Replies
Thanks for the report on that stain product.
I'd use 400 grit to prep that second coat but I'm pretty conservative about knocking down high gloss finishes. You're probably OK with the 220, still it's only a little more time and paper, using the 400.
The old way of killing gloss on a final bar finish is to use very fine steel wool and then wax the surface. A waxed bar surface is preferable for drink glasses because they'll slide easily on it.
If it was MY bar, it's 400 or 600 wet/dry paper between coats, finish with satin is fine, and wax as well..but I'd hope a coaster is used (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
A Coaster? "Welllllll....they all call me Speedo but my real name is Mister Earl."
Yeah, I'd like to see that second coat sanded wet by hand with 400, then 600. But that takes a couple of hours or more, depending on the size of the bar.
There used to be an old millworking place in Middletown NY where I could buy custom 2" clear pine bar/counter tops. They'd make me rails out of any species I could think of. I usually chose mahogany because they had such beautiful clear heart stuff.
It was always easy to work with of course, the blond and red finishes standing out like diamonds in any room.
Yeah, our landlord had a bunch of old rock maple gym floor that we used for the top and then my buddy built a steam box and we bent and laminated a thick ash rail. Ended up having to hold the ash curves down with some pretty large countersunk screws which we filled with Abatron epoxy. (We thought we would just enamel the rail) Before painting, though, I wanted to see how that ash would look stained black. I'm happy to report that the epoxy actually took the Woodsong stain just fine, too. The black curved rail is a beauty to behold. The maple looks great, too.
My partner suggested 220 to sand with, but that sounded to rough to me. I'll go with the 400, hand sanded.
We were hoping to avoid the wax, as that's just a maintenance item, but I could go either way with it...
You don't have to wax it. Just do a careful job of sanding before you put on the final coat, then make sure that you got the surface warm enough that the final coat will flow out smoothly. Normal room temperature is fine for that.
The purpose of fine wet sanding with 400grit is to provide as glass-like a surface as possible. That ensures the best flow for the final coat and adds depth to the finish.
Like a clear shallow pond with a pebble bottom in early morning light, such a finish captures the eye and quiets the mind.
Like a clear shallow pond with a pebble bottom in early morning light, such a finish captures the eye and quiets the mind.How poetic! Did you compose that yourself? It belongs in the best of Breaktime quotes thread.Bill
Yes, it's mine. Came to me as a result of comtemplating the whys and hows of fine finishing, a craft which has captured my attention on many occasions. But, until now, I've never looked for words to describe what happens to me when I see beautiful wood under the best conditions.
Well, it is beautiful, and it conveys the depth and clarity of a good clear finish very effectively. Good on you!Bill
Good on you!
Thanks Bill. Seems there's something more to be said for practicing self cognizance than just personal safety and higher skill on the job site.
If you make a glass-like surface to put the last coat on, what provides tooth so the last coat adheres to the surface? As far as I know, since varnish doesn't affect the previous coats (unlike shellac, which partially disolves pervious coat so it melds with previous), the only thing that helps it stick is the roughness of the previous coat. Hate to see the last coat just peel off after it cures!
Depending time between coats ( curing, not drying) there is still a remaining element of chemical bond going to happen besides the mechanical bond.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Ever do any wet sanding with ultra fine grit? There's plenty of tooth. It's the smoothness to which I was referring. That's what gives the finish depth and clarity.
Edited 1/23/2008 8:38 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
If you don't think you got enough advice here, you could go to Knots and ask, but I think you got good answers here. I have heard that you don't want to use satin for anything but your last coat of varnish anyway because the flattening agents will hide the grain and make it look murky. I figure if you are putting another layer of varnish on, real fine sanding is sort of counterproductive. Definately vacuum and wipe or tack cloth after sanding and before final coat.
Sanding or steel wooling or using a Scotchbrite (or rubbing out) will reduce the glossiness, but I've heard that the varnish isn't as hard then. I haven't tried it to see.
Too late now but I shave off the nibs after each coat before applying the next coat using a very sharp card scraper. That takes a whole couple of minutes. That gives a smooth surface for the next coat without the sanding hassle.
Now I would go with the card scraper and then wet sand with 320. The next day look at how nice it looks and you very well might not want to mess it up in any manner of dulling its' finish.
I'm curious why you chose spar varnish as your finish? A bar top is not an application you would usually opt for this kind of finish.
We chose spar varnish based on previous advice here on FH. We wanted a durable and low maintenance finish.Went down last night to check on the second coat and it does look NICE! Its a really deep, transparent finish and so far, I'm totally pleased. There are some boogers in it right now, as we don't have the most dust free situation. I like the idea about going over with a card scraper. I don't have one of those, but I do have a carbide scraper with a brand new blade, do you think that would work, if I went over it lightly and CAREFULLY?Also, my partner was talking about using steel wool between coats. I thought I remembered somewhere that one shouldn't use steel wool on certain types of finish, but I can't remember details. I bought some 320 and 400 sandpaper and some fine Scotch-brite pads to go to work.Still can't decide between high gloss and satin, though... Thanks do all for the great discussion.
The old timers used very fine steel wool, triple zero...called three aught, and four zero...four aught. It's fine for any hard finish, particularly good to knock down a very high gloss in order to apply wax. It's not good at smoothing out imperfections in a previous coat. That's why fine sanding with a block or an obital sander is recommended.
I haven't looked for those types of steel wool in many years, since I did some restoration work with a carpenter who had that kind of knowledge. His only advice to me about where not to use steel wool had to do with softer finishes where it might become embedded.
Waxing accomplishes a couple of things. It takes the high sheen off the surface so that there's less reflection and it allows the wood grain to be seen in it's natural state. I've seen some excellent ornamental wood products which were hand rubbed with only bees wax, no other sealer or finish.
As someone else suggested, you'd probably find alot more on this topic, some of those old timers themselves instead of one of their admirers like me, over at Knott's. I'm just scratching the surface (pun intended, bad as I admit it to be).
Edited 1/23/2008 12:33 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
The reason I was surprised at your choice of spar varnish for a bar top is due to the fact that spar varnishes are designed for exterior use. The are what is known as "long oil" varnishes. They contain a relatively high precentage of very slow drying oils when compared to interior varnishes. Basically, the coating remains soft and doesn't cure to as hard a finish as an interior varnish would. This gives the coating flexibility so it can withstand the greater expansion and contraction forces you would have with wood that is exposed to the elements. As a result, you may find that once you start using your bar, the finish scratches and dents relatively easily.Does this mean you can't use spar varnish on interior projects? Obviously not, as your experience proves. However, there may be two issues you should be aware of. First, because spar varnishes remain somewhat flexible, rubbing out the final coat can be a problem. You should let the finish cure for as long as possible, at least a week, a month would be better. The longer you let it cure, the less problem you will have with the finish showing sanding scratches or getting streaky or cloudy. After you've let it cure for as long as possible, polish the finish very lightly with a very fine grit paper. Starting with 2000 grit is not out of the question. If that doesn't work, move down to 1500 grit, then 1,000 etc. If you use a paper that is too coarse you will get scratches in the final coat that will be very difficult to remove, so it is better to start with a very high grit and work backwards until you get to the one that works best. Steel wool may also be an option (use 0000) but I would try this in an inconspicuous place first as it may make the finish appear somewhat cloudy. (To answer your question, steel wool is OK to use on solvent based finishes, but you should aviod using it on water-based products.)You can try to eliminate the real glossy look by applying a third coat of gloss and then rubbing it out to remove the shine, but to do this will require a fair amount of sanding and polishing and on a soft finish may leave you with a very dull or even scratchy film. The easier way would be to apply a final coat of semi-gloss or satin. Don't worry about the flatting agents in satin finishes weakening the final film--that is a myth. Also, I have never experienced any loss of clarity with satin finishes, (another flatting-agent-related myth) and if you are applying one coat only you shouldn't have to worry about that anyway.
Letting the varnish set up for a loooong time is not a problem. We have one party scheduled for a week from Saturday and then it'll sit idle for several more weeks. I may wait to put that third coat on until after next Saturday, that'll give me more time to work with it.
What I think I'll do now is attempt to knock off the nubs with a sharp carbide scraper, and then sand everything down with the 000 equivalent scotch-brite pads and let it go with that until after the party.Reasoning for spar varnish? Well, I've finished a couple of other bars with standard polyurethanes and I don't like the plastic-y feel. My partner wanted to use that cruddy pour on epoxy stuff, but that so soft and cheap feeling, I had a temper tantrum. I briefly considered using shellac, but I've never used shellac before and didn't want to risk it on this bar (some would say its inappropriate as well). I like the look and feel of a well rubbed (tung) oil finish, but I figured that the maintenance would just be too much. This bar is in what is essentially and Elks Club, so it'll get sporadic heavy use. I may have (mistakenly) chosen the spar varnish based on its reputation for durability and the fact that its a tung oil based solvent and so penetrates pretty good. I never considered the softness or flexibility of the material, and so maybe we're in for some problems down the road.
The more I look at it, the more I think maybe rubbing it out with real fine grit paper and then waxing may give me the combination of light glowing gloss and the warm "touch" that I'm shooting for.
I'll second everything Andy just said. And about that carbide scaper..don't even think about it. And no need for steelwool at ALL until final rub out,it WILL leave shards emedded in the soft varnish, and with water based ( I know, not what you are using) it will rust as well as leave oily residue that will screw up next application. For future reference.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"