‘Bout to upgrade to 200 AMP service at the house, and wondered if there were any makes/models of Panel that you have had particularly good luck with… both from an ease of install and a reliability standpoint. Are we talking 6 of one, 1/2 dozen, here?
Appreciate any thoughts.
Brian
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Brian Roberts, Manager
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Replies
Hi brian,
for me the panel of choice has always been Sq D "QO" panels they are reliable and the breakers have a very good visual trip indicator, I have not installed the HOMELINE panels by Sq D but they are I think primarily for the DIY crowd which is another issue for me.
Type "QO" is $$$$$$ but they have been in use for many many years, and ONLY Sq D "QO" breakers will work in them
Wadsworth was also an excellent panel but I have not seen a new one in years.
Contractors around here are choosing Siemens and it is because of $ primarily I don't think the quality is that good with these, but this is a subjective opinion anyway
I've used Square D Homeline panels and C/Bs and have had problems (tripping somewhat below specified amperage) with maybe 1 out of 50 breakers. But that seems about average across all brands. They certainly are cheap at HD, in large part because they come packaged with 10 or 12 breakers. They're big enough for most any house in their number of slots.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
My background is large comm. / heavy industrial, residential is something I have not worked on in over 25yrs. But I do cringe everytime I see some body with a list standing in the aisle buying stuff to do electrical work on his own place.
Of all the gear out there I do not like GE, or Westinghouse! I would not wire a dog house with that stuff
Since this is your service entrance, check with the utility that supplies your power. Our DWP here has a short list of makes/models they will accept. Also check with your building and safety department. Gotta make both them and the utility happy or no electrons for you.
-- J.S.
I bought some square D breakers today in fact, they are very reliable. The only thing about them is that only Square D breakers will work in them as opposed to Seimes or some others. That shouldn't be a problem though since it's a very popular brand. Pushmatic is ok but they're very expensive.
What panels do I like?
Zinsco, XOs, Federal Pacific, Bulldog Pushamatics, any of the Edison fuse type, ones with large exposes knife switches on them. At least 60 years old. Make loads of money replacing them.
For replacing them you have a lot of good ones. Square D, the QO line, is a strong choice with a long record of dependability, widely available support and breakers nationwide. If I had to point to one brand as the standard all others are judged by Square D QO would be it. The basic design of the breakers haven't changed for decades other than to add GFI and AF breakers to the line.
From the same manufacturer I'm less enthusiastic about Square D Homeline products. A little cheaper. The breakers and panels seem less well thought out. Not dangerously so but Given a choice between QO and Homeline I would take the QO.
GE or Seimens is a good choice with a long and strong record. All of these are solid but I really like Cutler Hammer for their standard copper busses, garantee and support. The breakers are a bit less common but the panels are particularly well designed.
This might sound a bit indecisive but generally any of the major producers are a good choice and reliable. The differences are minor, even the prices are close, and rather subtle.
Within each brand there are a few things to consider. Get as large a panel, in terms of spaces available, as possible. Your limited to 42 breakers by code so go for the whole 40, the maximum in most panels. Unused slots leave a place to go if a breaker goes bad and eats the buss bar. The difference in price is minimal compared to the overall price of the job.
Also get a copper bus bar. Tin coated aluminum are good until the tin wears off. Copper is more resistant to corrosion, wear and will run a bit cooler. Copper is more expensive but again it is a minor cost in comparison to the total job.
Same with feeders go copper if at all possible. With a copper conductor a loose and overheated connection can often be corrected by cleaning and tightening. The same connection made with an aluminum conductor usually has to have the lug and a much greater length of the conductor replaced. Often a much bigger problem.
>>What panels do I like?
>>Zinsco, XOs, Federal Pacific, Bulldog Pushamatics, any of the Edison fuse type, ones with large exposes knife switches on them. At least 60 years old. Make loads of money replacing them.
ROFLOL! I got to that FedPac listing and really satrted to worry!
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Thanks everyone for the great responses. I suspect I won't be dealing with panels that are so heavy that I can't get them off the floor (at least I HOPE not!), but it's an interseting insight into the world of larger electrical systems. Some of my clients in my other business are ultra high-end home builders, and the MEP systems that go into these houses are essentially mid-size commercial setups. One of them just got done building a 25K SF house, at 25M bucks, and the air handlers take up as much space as a mid size Cape!
Anyway, thanks again. Looks like it's a choice between the Cutler CH or the Square D "QO".
Brian_____________________________HomeBase________ Kitchen & Bath Builders, LLC
Brian Roberts, Manager
Re: "Looks like it's a choice between the Cutler CH or the Square D "QO"."
IMHO I don't think you could go wrong with either.
Not an electrician, but I'll offer an opinion based on my own research. I have a Siemens panel in my house, and I like it fine, no problems and no bad breakers (4 yr old panel, replaced smaller unit, most of the breakers are 30 yrs old from the old panel). In my new house I'll be using SquareD QO. I can get them from the local electrical supply house as well as the local Home Depot. I can't think of a good reason not to use either brand.
always been Sq D "QO" panels
100% agree, that's what's in my own house, etc
Square D QO has been a long time fave but the Siemans panels are laid out nice, especially for adding circuits while hot.
bake
As long as you want biased opinions, I would place Siemans panels at the bottom of the heap. The reason is that they come with obsolete, archaic, dangerous and difficult to install straight-slotted screws to attach the front cover. These covers are heavy and it is often required to replace the cover at the end of the day. This can easily become a two man job when, if Phillips or Robertson [square] screws were used, you could balance the first screw of the tip of your screwgun and do the job single handed. One man versus two man is quite a savings in labor.
I sent an e-mail to Siemans and the manager of their panel division replied that they did a survey 20 years ago and discovered that every electrician has at least a straight slotted screwdriver. So they decided to make their panels installable with easily available tools. Other companies seem to realize that time is somehow money, a unique proposition in physics, and actually design their products with us installers in mind.
So stay away from Siemans panels and tell them why.
~Peter
If you find a starving dog and feed it, it will not bite you. That is the difference between a dog and an Iraqi. --Mark Twain
>So stay away from Siemans panels and tell them why
That, and they used jewish slave labor from concentration camps during world war II. Enough that I'll never buy them. Krupps neither. Don't need their fancy coffee pots. Tell anyone you can not to buy Siemens for this reason, and research it if you care for the history.
remodeler
My preference is Cutler-Hammer, the CH series. Not the BR series that matches Bryant breakers! My second choice is Square D QO series. Both of these use 3/4" size breakers so a 40 pole space panel is not as big as the 1" style breakers used by Homeline, Bryant, GE, Seimmens, etc.
Frank DuVal
Good point. The Cutler Hammer 'CH' panels are better than the 'BR' series. I rarely even see the BR version. Slipped my mind that they even existed.
The mind. First thing to go on an electrician. Absorbin all that current causes dain bamage.
"Krupps neither. Don't need their fancy coffee pots. "
REMLDR,
'Cept now those coffee pots are made in China with that country's slave labor.
FWIW, I've been very happy also with the Sq D "QO" line.
Jon
Screwgun? I was under the impression that using a screwgun was frowned on in electrical work, except rough in (box mounting for example). I think it was some IBEW stuff that I saw once in a waiting room.
Anyway, I agree that the only thing to use is Robertson screws; they stay on the driver while leaving your other hand free.
Screwguns have adjustable torque settings. I have been reprimanded for using them on circuit breakers so no longer do that. Same with receptacles. Actually, I sometimes do and then verify with my big Klein combination doorstop, tent peg, electricians chisel and obsolete slotted screw driver.
The problem is there is no printed standard relating the numbers on the screw gun and the resulting torque values. But for the connectors and boxes and all the rest of the non-UL parts, the screw gun [aka drill] is very common on commercial projects.
And I did indeed buy 1/4"--20 round head Phillip drive screws in several different lengths to attach some of the panel covers. I never got around to painting them flat black tho.
~Peter
The reason that I questioned that is that in the last place we rented while our house was being finished, we'd get the IBEW mag every month, addressed to someone who hadn't lived there for 10 years....and there was a series of letters to the editor about a pic showing someone using a screwgun, and discussing how this should never have been printed....
I use a Makita impact driver to install panel covers, attach wires to receptacles, attach wires in breaker panels, etc. You get used to your tools and the torque necessary to do the work without stripping screws. You do this by using the driver and then checking with hand tools. There is a learning curve, but it is faster in the long run to use power tools effectively.
I personally like the Makita driver over any cordless drill I have used for the job of loosening and tightening fasteners.
Frank DuVal
> there is no printed standard relating the numbers on the screw gun and the resulting torque values.
My guess is that the screw gun limiters aren't accurate enough and probably change with wear so much that the manufacturers don't want to take responsibility for them making any particular torque value. You might try to calibrate yours against a good torque wrench, and see if it's the same a few months later.
-- J.S.
On high end installations or where power is critical. Like continuous manufacturing processes, some medical facilities and all nuclear plants electricians are commonly issued calibrated torque limiting screwdrivers and/or wrenches.These are not cheap and they need to be traded out regularly, either on a use or time schedule, and recalibrated.
In less critical applications most electricians go by feel and this is good enough as anything close to the ideal torque will work well. Hacks, the inexperienced and rank amateurs have problems getting it 'right'. Too loose, barring the wire falling out, and you can fail to get enough contact area. This can cause excessive heating or loosening over time. Possibly destroying some of the conductor and insulation, the breaker or even the buss bar. Especially bad with aluminum conductors.
Too much torque and the conductor can be crushed, again causing reduced cross-section and heating or the clamping device on the breaker can crack or snap allowing the connection to fail. Again a much bigger problem with aluminum than copper.
Why not just buy six new philips or Robertson screws to fit the panel cover?
Try removing or remounting a GE load center cover in the 300 to 500 amp commercial range. 5' tall with those darned twist dog latches and straight slotted screws. I'll join the choir to bitch about those things. They are heavy, awkward and a two man job any time of the day.
Dave
Amen on the larger panel covers they can be real bears. Especially when the dogs catch a wire. There you are straining with a helper to keep the panel aligned and your working the first dog. Rotate and tighten just enough to help support the cover.
Suddenly there is a twanging bang amplified by the cover being up against you head. Suddenly the weight of the cover is no longer being shared. You strain with he weight as the voice of your helper comes through the doorway behind you asking: 'You OK?'. This is quite surprising as his being so far away so fast represents a speed of movement previously unknown and unexpected in an electrical helper.
Of course, given the situation, you dare not become cross. The cover will not yet stand on its own and you can neither attach other dogs or disengage the dog that caused the short. If you let go the cover will come crashing down. The cover, a substantial bit of steel but still subject to being bent and distorted, the panel and, last but not least, your own sweet hide are all at risk.
No, it is not a time for ill considered language or divisiveness. Should the helper be scared off you may have to stay there until other help arrives. This is the time to bite your tongue and persuade the helper to lend a hand. Save the chastisement for abandoning you until after the cover is secured in place.
My solution to this issue is to create a few studs. Usually I create them out of 10-24 screws or whatever the panel uses for mounting. Share the head off a 2' long screw and, using a hacksaw or a Dremel tool cut-off wheel cut a slot in one end. Grind the other end enough to make a dog point to allow easy insertion and starting.
On covers where there are actual through mounting screws, not just dogs, you insert a set of these studs into the upper mounting holes. Then the cover can be slipped over the studs and be supported until the other screws can be installed. Once the other screws are in place a slotted screwdriver is used on the slots you cut to unscrew the studs allowing the usual screws to be installed.
On those panels with only dogs I use some lipstick, doesn't every electrician have some lipstick in their kit, on the panels and mount the cover normally. The cover is then removed and drilled to accept a couple of the studs up high. This then allows the panel to be aligned and hung on the studs and then the dogs rotated and tightened. The new hole being covered by a couple of screws with the same thread as your studs.
On those panels lacking a flat sufficient to tap a thread into I screw in a couple of pieces of angle near the top. On panels that I know I will be seeing later, service contract or long time customer, the extra time taken to make this modification pays dividends many times over.
Using these studs make the large panel covers, just barely, possible to manage single handed. Still a good idea to have help but should something short out and your help flee the studs will hold the cover without your having to stand there straining.
I was that helper 20 years ago. My flatfooted "back jump" range was over 4' back then. Never made it to the door, but admit the thought was there. After the first three or four, I got use to it. The older GE panels were the worst.
Now when I get into one, the first thing I do is bundle and arrange wires to keep them away from the latch dogs.
I like your idea of the temporary mounting studs for both type of panels. That is going into my bag of tricks.
thanks,
Dave
My Square D QO series panel has slotted screws affixing the cover. It was installed in '93.
Like Dave said, if it bothered me that much I'd buy some 8-32 square drive screws and be done with it.<P><FONT face=Geneva,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif color=darkslategray size=2></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Geneva,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif color=darkslategray size=2>Jon Blakemore</FONT></P>