I’m currently working on a roof that’s 18/12. I always use a man’s square, so this in no big deal to me.
What do you folks that use a slow square do on manly roofs like these?
blue
Ps I’ve downloaded iraqview…but don’t know how to resize….any tips?
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Replies
I always use a Man's Square/Framing square for marking the plumbcuts birdsmouths and overhangs. Have you ever seen the 12" Speedsquare?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dtools%26field-keywords%3DSwanson%25252012%252522%252520Speed%252520Square%26store-name%3Dhi/102-2507472-9130535
Joe Carola
Framer, I've seen them in books. They, and their juniour counterparts aren't allowed on my jobsites.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
still taking the horse and buggy to work I see ....
Jeff
Blue,I resized the picture for you.Joe Carola
What's wrong with a speed square? Handy little tool IMO.Who Dares Wins.
"They, and their juniour counterparts aren't allowed on my jobsites."
Blue,
What's up with that statement? Most of your posts re framing are about making the process faster/more efficient. Get yourself a speed square...they rock.
Dez
Dez, before we go any further in this discussion...let me ask you....have you ever pulled out your speed square and marked a square line on a 2x4? 2x6? 2x8? 2x 10?
I live for faster, more efficient processes. I can categorically say that they speed square is the most useless tool on the jobsite. Of all the fastest framers that I've worked with...none of them used a speed square for anything.
I've worked with a lot of fast, very good framers.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Before you go any further, I'm gonna blah blah blah your ornery old azz! Speed squares have their place on sites these days. I don't think they should or were ever intended to replace the framing square, but I do think they are a nice addition to the framing square. I wouldn't dream of trying to frame a roof with one, but for alot of other stuff around the site, they are very useful. Using as a rough protractor comes to mind, as does a saw guide, a layout tool, a scribe. Not to mention, that it fits nicely in my belt.... unlike a framing square. It's nice to be able to make a quick pitch cut up on the roof with out having to bring another tool up there.
So you can cut a 9 in 12 freehand? Well, good for you, that is really a testament to the years you've put into the trade. But I'm willing to bet you didn't come out of the womb that way. I'm betting there was a time way back when, when you had a hard time cutting a straight line, let alone free handing pitch cuts. Practice, practice, practice..... yeah, I agree. But if you think I'm gonna let a greenhorn start pulling cowboy crap and burn up my lumber pile with his freehand "practice" cuts, yer crazy.
You don't want to allow speed squares on your sites.... go for it. But yer oughta yer mind if you think the rest of don't know what we're doing cuz we use speed squares.
Take what you want... leave the rest.
Before you go any further, I'm gonna blah blah blah your ornery old azz!
Thank you Diesel....I love stirring up this hornets nest! I'm laughing my rear off just thinking about how riled up you guys are about this...
Here's what I'm really trying to tell you guys...the guys that work all day, every day in the carpentry business....your eye is a lot better than you give it credit. Let me ask you this Diesel....have you ever cut a stack of rafters, and maybe on one...wandered off line? Just by looking at it, don't you know it's not right? How bout a straight cut-off....can't you tell by looking at it that it's not square?
Can you see something out of level without a level? Can you see something out of plumb without a plumbstick? If you work every day in the trades....then yes....you can see all of this....if you let yourself.
I'm not trying to tell you that you don't know what your doing cuz you use a speed square....all I'm telling you is you are taking twice as long and not gaining any quality!
As far as that 9/12 cut...it was luck because I do it all the time. Keep in mind that I rarely cut an entire roof...I mostly just cut layons. Of course if I was going to hack into a stack of 20' 2x6's I'd make an accurate pattern and cut them exact. But...on a layon, I usually cut the entire thing up there on the roof. I don't even bring a square with me on those! Occasionally I have to double cut one, but...oh well, I'd rather spend the occasional extra seconds cutting one that got away, rather than guaranteeing extra time by marking everything. On rare occasions, for whateve reason, I do have trouble making the cuts. Then, I simple make a small wood pattern and keep in in my pouch. I made one on this job for the 18/12 because I'm not "familiar" with that pitch...it hasn't been "burned" into my brain.
I'm challenging you to find out what's burned into your brain.
You might be surprised.
blue
If you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
My brother had a 2,400 square foot garage framed by a guy like you. Hardly used a tape measure, trusted his eyes for everything. Smallest scrap pile I've ever come across and one of the best framing jobs.Who Dares Wins.
Thank you Gunner for verifying that it can be done.
For whatever reason, I'm a small scrap pile freak too. I'm freakin' obsessed with that idea. I'm forever pulling long items out of the pile that the other guys have tossed in. If it's got twenty nails in it...I just save it for smaller pieces...your know...14.5 blocks...I cut between the nails and toss the nail embedded stuff out. I also will reuse discarded members that have been nailed together. Most guys won't pull stuff apart. Again, I use it for smaller stuff...that way, I just start hacking it into small pieces and then I'm only forced to separate one nail at a time.
Its a sickness...but I feel it's necessary to help preserve the lumber that we've been blessed with.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
It's called pride.Who Dares Wins.
Hey blue.... not gettin riled up on this end..... Sox are about to win the World Series, pretty tough to ruffle my feathers lately!
But I do hear you..... we can all probably eliminate a second or two here and there by not doing the same things we've always done.... a thousand times a day....for umpteen years.... just cuz "that's the way we always do it". I do see what you're saying and even agree with you. But only to a point.
I just got a kick out of your "not on my site" talk. I think I must have worked for you a few years back! Yer just like my crusty old boss who rode me so hard that I actually learned enough to start my own outfit... God bless him! I see "you" at least once on every site I build and chuckle every time. You ornery old buzzards crack me up as much as us "greenhorns" probably get a rise out of you.
Sure I can spot a wall out of plumb from across the site..... but I ain't gonna eyeball it back in. I'll grab my plate level.... oh wait, you don't like them either, right? ;)
Actually diesel, I do check every corner with a 4' level. And guess what?!!!!...that's the same tool that the builder would use...or the homeowner! If I can get that bubble in the center of the 4' level, so will they! If they do, they're happy....and I'm happy...and we're all happy!
I used to have several 8' levels...like I said..I was anal...then...I started framing 19' walls...and looked in the stores and didn't see any 19' levels...so I gave up. I actually framed a couple of years with only a torpedo!
Yes...I checked 19' tall walls with a torpedo! And you know what...they plumbed up just fine...remember...we square everything on the deck....exact.
You don't really need a level on a new rough...just have to keep measuring parallel.
And don't get too carried away about me being one of those crusty old guys. I'm not...anymore. I do occasionally explain some things to the new kid...but he's not really my apprentice so I don't mess too much with him. I did explain to him that I don't allow him to wear no f'ckoff hat....he's got to wear a kicka** hat! And when I see him doing something stupid like using a man square to mark a square line on a header stock that should be cut by eye...I gently "teach" him...in a nice soothing tone....
You gotta handle the young guys differently you know....they've been coddled by our Democratic eduction system....you know...tell them something positive...then correctthem...then finish with something positive....
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Blue,
Read your response last night but too tired to respond then. Answer to your question: YES.
I personally own three “Manley†Rafter (framing) squares. My daily driver is a Stanley #AR100. (Bought it new 29+ years ago) I also own one mini square, like half size (sans tables), two ‘Combo’ squares, two T-bevels, two T-squares (one 48†and one Drywall), and one ‘Speed Square.’
I do know how to use all the tables on the ‘conventional rafter square’. I use mine for stairs 95% of the time. I also know how to use the functions of the (well thought out) speed square. You don’t!
I congratulate you on your ability to cut a prescribed (Not…Pre- Scribed) roof pitch…. Freehand…and by ‘eye’! Tell ‘Taunton!’ Maybe you can do an article. Good knowledge shouldn’t go without being shared with the masses.
Don’t know what your age is…. I’m 55 and you got me hands down! Freehand 90’s, and 45’s always good enough for framing…(maybe pencil mark off) but ask me to do you a 39-degree cut or something…I’m heading for the chop saw or grabbin' a square. I can’t eyeball that stuff! (I do mostly remodeling/repair and new/old millwork.) But , your still my new hero.
Sorry for your luck Blue, but…judging from the actual responses: You Lose! Relax and chill for awhile! Actually, I think your just being stubborn! ; )
Peace
PS ~ Speed squares are excellent ‘mud and ice’ scrappers for cleaning the cut line. Almost indestructible, and already in your hand!
Dez
Dez, thanks for your reply.
I can tell you love your squares....thats a good thing.
I also congradulate you on knowing how to use the tables on the framing square.
The most important thing that you've said to me though is that you know how to use the functions on the speed square. That if the crux of my beef with speed square owners. When I ask them to show me something with it, they show me how to mark a plumb cut. Well, whoopde doo! I've already told you I can do that by eye, so a plumb cut is no big deal. Then, they show me how to mark a level line and the dang square makes such a short mark on the level cut that I can still eyeball as accurately (making level cuts is significantly harder...not impossible....but harder to do by eye...especially low pitchs). Then they tell me that they can use it to square 2x4's and thats when I'm ready to toss the thing in the weeds (I did toss Franks.....and he tossed Bens...and he tossed Steves...and the slowest guy on the crew still has and uses one....his days are numbered).
So here's my take on these things. The rookies get one, figure out how to make simple pitch cuts, then never indulge themselves in learning the inticacies about roof framing and other uses of the framing square.
They basically settle.
I know that not all guys with speed square settle, but EVERY SINGLE ONE THAT I'VE EVER MET HAS SETTLED. THEY DON'T KNOW SQUAT ABOUT ROOF FRAMING, ANGLES, OR BASIC GEOMETRY!
Also Dez, keep in mind that this entire thread is aimed at Rough framers. Remodeler may very well find that little tool helpful, but I just don't see much use for it out there in the framing industry. It does make a handy ice scraper...but so does my hammer, as well as my square.
Please don't take any offense. I used to carry block planes when I roughed...now I know how to fit stuff without it.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Blue,
Thanks for not taking my post too personally. I've always enjoyed your framing techniques threads. IMO, you are a craftsman...from what I have read.
Dez
Your welcome Dez and thanks for the nice compliment.
I like stirring up this speed square debate....I'm not saying they don't have many good uses, I'm just trying to say that they shouldn't be a replacement for the framing square and the framing square is essential for learning the geometry of a jobsite. The young eyes today never pick one up and they are worse off because of it.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Jef(f), I took your challenge today...I decided that I'd try to pull an 8.5 and a 5 pitch out of my back pocket.
With trepidation, I picked up my trusty saw....first thing in the morning....I wasn't even warmed up. I lined up the saw and aimed it over a 2x6, mentally picturing a 5/12....pulled the trigger and .....and......and....nothing.....I HADN'T PLUGGED THE CORD IN YET!
So, I walk over and plug it in.....now I'm thinking....that mthr fin Buck is in my head! I don't like that....why should I have to prove anything....what's this...am I chickening out? I laughed to myself...picked up the 2x6, pulled the trigger and promptly cut a PERFECT 5/12!
Okay....thats an easy one to me...I worked for at least 6 years on 5/12 in my apprentice days.
Now the more difficult 8.5. this is a wierd one...I don't have any basis for this stored in my fast depleting brain cells. I pull the trigger, mentally picture a 9/12, back off slightly and bam...I promptly cut a .............7.5. MTHR FFFR......Okay....I mark the 8.5 and cut it. Okay, now that I see it....I'll beable to do it again. I start again...mentally line up the 9/12....back off slightly....and....MTHRR FRRR...I cut another perfect 7.5!
Screw it.
I can't cut an 8.5 pitch!
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
That is funny . So you aint framin' no stinkin' 8.5 /12 roofs fer no one .
Where do you get a framing sqaure with the tables on them? haven't seen one in the stores in years . and we're talking Piffin years here. Most of them don't even have decent numbers.
Piffen years ya say...
wern't such a thing as a framing square...
Caves came pre-walled
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
well I was never good with ancient history.
pre-ancient history........
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Don, everyone on my crew has tables on their squares...but I don't.
I still use an old stanley "homeowners' square. They used to sell them for $7 when their "professional" one was $12 or 14. The homeowners was better! It flexed....didn't bend and snap. It was slightly lighter and it doesn't have those tables.
THE TABLES.....!
That's what I'm trying to tell y'all....you don't need the tables! You can easily figure everything that the tables tell you by knowing how to use the square! When I'm giving the tables lessons to the kids...err apprentices...I make them point to a number on the table and I show them how to get that number with my square!
You know the old saying....teach a guy to fish and you feed him for life? Well my main Bluism is teach a guy how to create his own table, and he'll never need one of them high follutin speed squares!
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
I have one with tables and it is old all of the newer ones don't . But then i don't frame very often so I kinda use the tables at times . Like if I need to make an 8.5 cut.
See Don...there you have it...there aint no table for the 8.5!
So, you gotta know how to make the magic work!
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
I read all this good stuff and I don't quite understand #1 How sombody that actully works can be putting up all these posts.
#2 How did you learn to type so fast or do you use voice recognition software to mass these disscussions out??????
And if you do ? on #2 tell me what it is cause I'm trying to get my dad to be able to cruse the E world. But his big old fat carpenter fingers don't want to work very good on the keyboard.
Still learnen learning
Clay
Hhehehe Clay...I've been asked that many times.
My "normal" work day runs slightly better than banker's hours. I think for the last three months, which I've put more time onsite in than any time in recent history, I've only been there for morning coffee occasionally. I usually shoot for about 10am but occasionally get there at 9 or noon. I generally leave at 4:30. If you include the hour drive (I do), that just about eats up all my "working for dollars" time. I do some other things that are productive to my bottom line and I am drifting farther and farther away from carpentry contracting which just happens to be the worst business that anyone can enter into.
I'm self taught at typing...I learned by posting to forums...I started out on Soccer Refereeing forums debating the wisdom of their arcane laws/rules. I have experience in refereeing and coaching. In fact, I stopped working full time in carpentry about 12 years ago when I took on the high school coaching job so I could better enjoy my family life and be a bigger part of their high school life (something my dad did not). I really have not ever went back full time...you know...there at 7....stay till 5 or 6...work every saturday.
My typing never inproved till I forced myself to watch the screen instead of the keys. Do that, and force yourself to find the right keys and your speed will increase exponentially.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Well that kind a helps explain some stuff. I kinda thought by the tone of the talk you were out there smashing your fingers every day. but noooo Your one of the smart ones that got out alive.
No doubt lots of good lessons learned, Hopefully you won't teach every one.
Cause some of us old fat lazy types don't want to have to compete against the Efficient carpenter, Hey is that a donut I hear calling.
P.S. Mavis Beacon taught me to type, trying to get my old man to evan look at a typing program is like telling him what he's going to find in the bottom of that bottle.
"Framer, I've seen them in books. They, and their juniour counterparts aren't allowed on my jobsites."
Gee..... why not?
Sure they aren't as accurate but if your up on a roof or tangled in some trusses it sure comes in handy. As just a simple square they're great as well. My Occidental tool belt has the little "holster" between bags for it and that's when I shifted over.
I also carry a 6" Starret tri-square in my bags as well.
I know what ya mean though, most guys don't even know how to use a rafter square anymore. There's tons of great tables on them that'll get ya started if you find one of the FHB articles on them. Most folks look at them as a big right angle and that's it.
W
IMHO
I wish to God I had been the one that invented the Speed Square....I'd be a very rich man by now. That is a great little tool! Anyone who doesn't think so, must not really know how to use one...or simply hasn't taken time out to learn.
Davo
I haven't taken the time to learn. I have asked many people to show me something with it.
I've never been shown anything worth looking at.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
" I've never been shown anything worth looking at..."
Blue,
From a framers point of view, I'm sure the almighty framing square is really all you need...and no doubt it is more accurate than a speed square, simply because it's easier to hold and align more consistently than a speed square.
But, a speed square is accurate enough for straight cuts and 45s...and it is a great tool to use as a "bridge" device when trying to measure the depth or thickness between 2 items; say between a recessed window frame that needs "packed out" and the existing wood siding. Any time you need to know the depth between two items...perhaps in a tight corner where a framing square won't fit...a speed square comes in handy for giving your rule or tape measure something to "read" from; if you know what I mean.
Also, instead of using a piece of scrap wood or scrap siding when wanting to transfer the rake cut to an actual finished piece of trim or siding, just jam your speed square into the rake and use it as a guide for scribing the rake onto the finished piece.Being that a speed square is just 3/4 inch thick at it's handle, you are only wasting 3/4 inch on the waste side...sometimes that may be all you can afford to waste if finish material is getting scarce at jobsite and you need to "stretch" it out.
It's great for marking 45 cuts on aluminum framework such as coil stock or suspended ceiling framework. It's great for beginners who can't cut straight with a circular saw to use as a guide when cutting 2x4s or 2x6s to specified lengths... grip the speed square with one hand, butt the saw carriage next to it with your cutting hand, and make your crosscut...fast simple, and straight.
As I said earlier, IMHO the speed square is really designed well for 3 things.... for marking 90 degree cuts, 45 degree cuts, and as a bridge tool for measuring irregular surfaces. Finding roof pitch with a speed square can be done, as well as marking plumb cuts and hip cuts, but I agree that the framing square is inherently more accurate for this kind of work. This aspect of the speed square ( finding pitch) is simply a bonus design to make the tool more marketable.
As mentioned earlier, here are a variety of things I use my speed squre for, but I'm more in the remodeling field. I have framed roofs, but rarely. I use the framing square more for stair riser set-ups...for marking bond lines when I'm roofing...for squaring up form boards when I'm pouring concrete, and also for checking existing walls or when building new walls for square. These are the uses I mainly need to use the framing square for.
I use my speed square every day. If vinyl siding, I use it a lot..if making some simple cabinetry, I use it a lot ....if installing suspended ceilings, I use it a lot...installing windows, or wrapping windows...use it a lot....doing trim casing work...use it a lot...etc. etc. The best thing about a speed square is that this tool is easily carried on your tool belt and can be put into motion in a moments notice. It's not designed to take the place of the framing square...hence the name...speed square....it's built to do a few things well, and do them fast!
Soooo, who's right and who's wrong?....the answer is...."It really depends on the job at hand that you are working on as to whether it is more advantageous to pick up a framing square or instead a speed square."
I hope you will agree.
Davo
I agree Davo ...
Blue's just a cranky old framer.
plus ... Blue ... com'mon ... pulled a 9/12 straight outta yer a$$?
My a$$ you did. OK ... quick ... now do a 8.5 .... and a 5 ....
the one thing in the original thread I liked was ... speed squares aren't as "accurate" as a framing square for layout rafter angles ...
then ... they slow ya down! How need's them to cut a straight line ... just eyeball it.
so .. you're happy if the rafters are tight against the ridge ... and still just as happy when the cut man gets to studs close to 90?
take your time ... build something nice, ya know? Eyeballing and speed kills ...
did some hardi siding today ... used the speed square all day long.
thot about Blue hating me all day long too ... "get that damn thing outta here ...."
Jeff
Jeff, I can do an 8.5...it's just a little less than a 9 and a little more than an 8. 5's are easy....they are exactly half of a 45. It takes a little practice but if your out there every day, i'm sure you can do it too....the difference is that I tried it...it worked. You haven't tried it, but....it would work, unless you rarely cut angles.
And don't even get me started about using one of those for hardie. There ain't no f'in way i would ANY square for hardie. Heres why...you're supposed to leave caulk room at the corner boards and window brickmolds. 3/16 is required at most windows, but if I leave that much room, unknowledgable folks think I've screwed up....so I leave about 1/8". I make all these cuts by eye and when their done caulking you would never know if the cut wavered from 1/16" to 1/8''. But really, how hard is it to make square cuts. On pitch cuts, 95% of the time, I'm able to do all my work on the ground. Typically, I either bury the top of the hardie under the rake "frieze" (if it's under the frieze, I don't use a saw..I chop it square with my claws), or I'm cutting to a line already snapped on the paper. I just make these cuts by eye because I'm aiming along the line. Usually, I lay about three courses of siding then make the freehand cut.
Now to get down and dirty about those pesky cuts at the ridge....In my "apprentice years (the first ten) I was the most anal guy alive. I'd calculate, make precision cuts....the whole nine yards. I'd then lug up those ultra precise rafters and want to commit hari kari when they didn't fit like an undersized condom.
What went wrong? Well, tell me.....how do you precision rafters fit to a ridge that has a slight twist? Or to a ridge that is cupped? Or.. what about those rafters that have a crown? What if the rafter has a twist to it. These things used to drive me nuts....
Now remember, I cut most of my stuff right up there on the roof...keep that in mind. Sometime in my carreer, I got hooked up with a carpenter that wasn't anal. He was a great carpenter though...and when he was done with a house, you couldn't find anything wrong....unless you love cross bridging...curtain blocks and stuff like that (no one in our state puts that stuff up). Anyways, Because of this carpenter, I learned to relax a little and I changed my ways...and here's what I found....I could fit the rafters BETTER because when I looked up and saw the twist, I'd simply compensate for it. I know will cut slightly concave when I'm looking at a cupped ridge, ....covex too if I need to. After a while all this stuff becomes second nature.
As far as that "cut man"....we don't have one. Every man cuts his own stuff. I caught the rookie Steve using a framing square to cut headers.....I stopped him. We cut our header in place, while the wall is laying down. The King studs are already framed in....all you have to do is lay the 2x10 in the hole and up tite to the top plate and make the cut....starting at the top of the header and aim it for the bottom The cut line is clearly "marked" by the king stud. So..why did I stop him? Because I'm not going to work with a guy that can't make that cut. It's not hard.....it's only hard if you believe it's hard. Anyways, Steve tells me that he's "having trouble" getting the cuts square. I tell him that I did too....on my first hundred cuts....after that...magically, on the 101st one, they all be perfect forever. So "lets get started getting over that 100 hump mark!".
If a guy truly can't cut a 2x4 and 2x6 perfectly square by eye, then he needs a better saw, better glasses or a sharper blade. Every man in America can make these cuts. Maybe 2/10 might be too hard, but not if you have sight lines to guide you.
Jef(f), sorry for creeping into your hardie day....
hard a good day!
blue
Ps I'll be willing to bet a few milkbones on all pitches 5 to 12. My strongest is the pitch that is being used on current houses. Were currently doing an 18/12 reversed onto a 9/12. 9's are a cinch....I'd need one tune up at most....18's are new to me...I can't do it by eye....never tried.
If you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
oh yeah ...
what about scraping the ice off a frozen windshield?
the speed square is way better at that too!
I'll take a pic of the little wall we hardi'ed today ....
front entry ... mission style place ... big fat trim .... oversized "heads" ...
mount blocks for the lights and plugs ...
even had a door bell hole that needed drilling ...
all but 6 pieces ... 3 on either side of the door ... had to be notched in some way!
running three in a row "wild" was a little too much for us at the time ...
got all excited ... whadda ya mean ... we just gotta cut it to length ...
and nail it!
oh yeah ... I forgot about the stupid stone walls with big caps that got in the way ... twice ... too ...
Looks nice though ... fun to do a house with some details ... and my buddy Joe put some details into this one.
Hey Blue ... we decided if ya sharpen the outside corner of the framing square U could throw away yer knife .... and if ya sharpened one other end you could cut fire wood and hunt with it .... and ... and .... ..... ahh forget it.
Jeff
Jef(f), my framing square is far superior for icescraping off the windshield. I can reach a full 2 feet! Thats important...you don't want a belly full of snow and ice!
I hope you do show a pic....I'll tell you which cuts I'd use a speed square on!
Heres a pic of a wall that I did. Everything was cut in place by eye except the ends of the soffit. I always (almost always) used a framing square to precisely cut the pine to length.If you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
One more, the Icescraping thing with steel is real hard on the glass, or is that only because I was using a 6"drywall knife?
!0" work better. Always use the biggest one on hand! I never scatched the glass...but they were regularly used.(So really smooth)
Peace
I use a beltsander for stubborn ice...
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I always thought 1/2 0f 45 was 22.5 ?
Right, which is the angle on a 5/12?
OK, technically it's 23 degrees but that's only a 1/32" difference at the base of a 2x12 cut at 22.5.Kevin Halliburton And with that, the great emporer Oz gently floated away on a curtain of hot air, laughing at the unfortunate ignorance of little people beneath him. But under his breath he cursed that stupid little dog...
Actually the angle on a 5/12 is 22.62°..........;-)
Joe Carola
Edited 10/28/2004 7:52 pm ET by Framer
Davo, i agree that the speed square is most useful for marking square lines and 45's.
I don't agree that you need a line marked to cut square.
Rookies might have trouble cutting 45's by eye, but they're only rookies for a very short while...
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Whatrix, you touched on two of the primary reasons why I believe a speed square slows you down.
Accuracy is an issue.
Learning how to use the framing square is anthother huge issue.
If you can't immediately pick up a framing square, without the tables, and without much thought, duplicate those tables, you haven't put enough thought into framing roofs.
If I ask you what the total length of a 5/12 rafter is on a 20' span....and you can't immediately answer 13'....then you haven't worked enough with a framing square.
If you don't know that the total length of a 9/12 rafter with a 30 foot span is 15-15", then you haven't worked enough with a framing square.
After you've worked enough with framing squares, then, I think it is alright to use a speed square....but you wouldn't bother....
I once had a guy onsite tell me that they are fast because he can quickly mark a pitch cut....I asked him which pitch cut would he like to see...he picked a 9/12. Without hesitation, I picked up my saw and cut a 9/12 on a 2x6 and told him to check it with his speed square. He checked...it was perfect.
Framing is an art....good art takes practice. Practice it.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Blue,
These are from your post No. 18. I know that a lot of other stuff has been posted since this but I’m just getting here.
“Accuracy is an issue.â€
“Learning how to use the framing square is anthother huge issue.â€
“If you can't immediately pick up a framing square, without the tables, and without much thought, duplicate those tables, you haven't put enough thought into framing roofs.â€
I think I’ll respond to these. No ridge deductions are made.
“If I ask you what the total length of a 5/12 rafter is on a 20' span....and you can't immediately answer 13'....then you haven't worked enough with a framing square.â€
Now, if you asked me this question I’d tell you that a 5/12 gains 1†per ft. A 5/12 rafter for a 10’ run will be 10’ 10†(not 13’, that is the length for a 12’ run.)
“If you don’t know that the total length of a 9/12 rafter with a 30 foot span is 15-15â€, then you haven’t worked enough with a framing square.â€
If you asked me this question I’d tell you that a 9/12 pitch is the easiest pitch to calculate rafter lengths by pencil because the 9/12 pitch is a 3-4-5 triangle and to find the rafter length you divide the run by 4 then multiply by 5. The answer to your 30’ span example is 15’ / 4 = 3-3/4’ x 5 = 15’ and 15/4’ = 18-3/4’ or 18’9â€. (not 15’ 15â€, that would be a 5/12 rafter length for a 15’ run.)
Oops! Oh well, we are never too old to blow it once in a while. I know that you would not actually make these simple mistakes on the job.
I too like to rattle off roof math. I too can freehand cut most common pitch cuts. Years of practice have made it possible. I like to reduce pitches to their lowest common denominator to speed up what math it does. The common pitches (pitches below 12/12) that do not reduce are 1, 5, 7, and 11. No big deal.
As far as the “No Speed Squares Rule†on your job sites goes, you’re the boss, but you are only limiting the technology of roof cutting methods on your jobs. Speed squares, rafter table books, and calculators all have their place on today’s jobsites. I agree that the 7†Speed Square is not the preferred tool to cut rafters with but it is extremely handy for quick rough cuts that you want to be better than “winging itâ€. I keep the 7†in my pouch and the 12†speed squares handy as well as my full size Framing Square. I do not care for cheap table-less framing squares.
I also hate it when tool companies do things like; they quit making high quality squares because they don’t sell enough of them. Stanley is guilty of this by not offering the expensive 45-120 model any more. Porter Cable has decided that It couldn’t teach the average sawyer to watch the guide instead of the blade so it now makes saws that have the blade on the left side so ignorant sawyers can see the blade easier. This is catering to ignorance. If you are getting sawdust in your face while cutting then you are not using the saw correctly. If you can see the blade, it can see you, and it spits in your face. Besides that, I have never seen a “Blade Watcher†constantly cut a straight line if at all. That is a jobsite rule with me, “No Blade Watching! You can look at it, but don’t watch it!â€
I have a new “blade left†saw because occasionally I need the ability to cut the reverse miter it cuts. It compliments the regular right-handed saw.
“After you've worked enough with framing squares, then, I think it is alright to use a speed square....but you wouldn't bother....â€
I have and still do work with a framing square but I do not ignore worthwhile technological advancements such as Speed Squares and CM calculators.
“I once had a guy onsite tell me that they are fast because he can quickly mark a pitch cut....I asked him which pitch cut would he like to see...he picked a 9/12. Without hesitation, I picked up my saw and cut a 9/12 on a 2x6 and told him to check it with his speed square. He checked...it was perfect.â€
Got lucky didn’t you. It was not cut on a mark at any given length though was it?
Hey, try this for freehand cutting the odd pitches discussed in some of the other post here. 8.5/12? Do your line up as you think it sites/eyeballs then close your eyes or look away before you cut. It works really well for square cuts and cutting 4/4’s in half with one line and two cuts. Use your ears and feeling to make the cut. I teach my newbie sawyers that it takes all your senses to make the saw work as it is designed. Do not ignore the features of the saw though. The foot should be solid against the material and the guide on the line. These are the most ignored saw features by newbies. If your senses were idiot lights on an instrument panel they should all be green during the cut. If you hear it binding, feel it binding, smell it binding, then its binding and the idiot lights all glowing red at the same time. Do not ignore what your other senses are telling you just because your eyes are saying the blade is on the line.
“Framing is an art....good art takes practice. Practice it.â€
I agree! Watching an artist perform their craft is a wonderful thing. I always appreciate the time I know it took for them to learn their craft from my own experience. But I still endeavor for improvement. And using Speed Squares are part of that improvement.
Mr. Jalp
"Porter Cable has decided that It couldn’t teach the average sawyer to watch the guide instead of the blade so it now makes saws that have the blade on the left side so ignorant sawyers can see the blade easier. This is catering to ignorance."
The ability to see the blade has very little to do with the reasons some educated sawyers choose the left blade saw. IMHO, it is safer to be able to see the guard position, especially after the cut is over and you are setting the saw down, and it's easier for me to line up a cut with a left blade saw before the teeth hit the wood, but that's about it for the visibility issues behind my preference for left blade.Kevin Halliburton And with that, the great emporer Oz gently floated away on a curtain of hot air, laughing at the unfortunate ignorance of little people beneath him. But under his breath he cursed that stupid little dog...
Very good Mr Jalapeno!
Thank you for taking the time to look at my posts and correct me. I have been contacted by one other who didn't want to embarass me but challenged my numbers. I admit wholeheartedly that I blew it.
The 5/12 20 span would indeed be 1" per foot longer than the run. That equates to 10' 10". Also, it should be common knowledge, through the enthusiasm of discovery that the 9/12 delivers a 15" rafter length. Anyone can figure 3" per foot more for every foot of run....I tried to say that the length should be 15' 45"..but I blew it.
And no one noticed because they DON'T KNOW THAT!.
The point is that the speed square is shorting out the studying process.
I wonder...has anyone else ever squared up a long rectangular foundation using the 5/12/13 method? Or does everyone still think that the 3/4/5 is the only one?
I'm a calculating kinda guy myself regarding raters, ridge heights, etc. When I framed daily, I got so accustomed to adding with the calculator, that I couldn't remember how to add simple numbers and fractions. I suppose the use of the constructions master would be good, but frankly I never run into enough situations to warrant using it. I like my simple little dual power with the separate memory butttons and can do quite well once i'm back practicing with it.
Those tables on the square are probably handy too although I haven't had one on my square since the mid 80s.. The obvious most used ones don't help me much because I tend to use different methods for figuring rafter lengths. For instance I wouldn't need to know the unit length of an 8/12, because I don't enter14.42....that would take FIVE pushes of the buttons. I push 208 sqrt, which delivers a more accurate number with 20% less effort.
I'm confident that I'm doing the right thing by not allowing my young proteges from carrying a speed square in their pouches. After they learn how to use the framing square, they are more than welcome to pick up and master another tool. They don't however, probably because they really don't need them that often!
I like having this dialogue, especially with those like you who do use both tools.
I'll address some more of your points later..this is long enough.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
/Blue,
I resized yer pik fer duh rest a' us dialuppers.
SAmT
Well, at least Framer didn't increase the KBs. Roar!
This ones for Sphere. 14k dialup.
SamT
watch it now Sam...I am speeding along at 26,400 now.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I love your shot of the attic / piggyback trusses.
lIke any man, I use the right tool for the job. A speed square fits in your tool belt. You take it out when you need it, and when you need a framing square you pick it up off the ground, floor or sawhorse. It's just not too convienient to carry around all day.
"What do you folks that use a slow square do on manly roofs like these?"
I call a framer and let him deal with it......lol.
Bob