As part of a large Addition and renovation project I’m putting a new Kitchen in my house.
Budget is tight (as always). Are initial cost estimates it looks like we can go 2 ways. We have to chose between putting in good quality cabinets and laminate countertop OR putting in cheaper cabinets and Granite/Soapstone/SS countertops.
As an appraiser I know that the flash of the more expensive countertops would probably return more value than good quality cabinets. However, I do not plan on selling this home. Will I be sorry in a few years if I go cheap on the cabinets??
We decided to spend our money on a larger addition and on items like siding and windows which are not easily upgraded in the future. This makes our flooring and Kitchen budgets thin. Our thinking is we can always come back in a few years and put in higher quality flooring or redo the Kitchen.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Replies
I would go with the better cabs.
Cheaper countertops can be easily swapped out for better ones in the future when budget allows for it.
Why not do both? By that I mean, get good quality cabs and
good quality countertops, but don't spend a bundle on either.
If there is an Ikea near you, their cabinets are inexpensive,
but the quality is excellent (full extension drawer slides are
my main requirement for kitchens, and Ikea's are sweet). Plus,
you can do granite tile for countertops with a wood detail on the
edges -- done properly, and this looks nearly as impressive as
the big slab countertops. A nice tile backsplash, and you're
talking sexy kitchen for little money.
Just checked -- there's an Ikea in Schaumberg, IL. I strongly
recommend checking them out -- it'll save you a bundle.
Mike,
Follow BIGMTK 's advice.
The less expensive countertops are easy to swap out later when the finances recover a bit. Cabinets could be swapped but not so easily.
Some think the only good cabinets are custom cabinets. I don't really agree. Custom cabinets made to fit your space exactly look great but can cost an absolute fortune. My kitchen for example -- custom cabinets in oak - $ 34,000. quoted. "Stock" sized cabinets also in oak - including some extra doors for wainscoting use = $16,500. The only "price" which I paid was that the cabinet run stops 2-1/2" short of an outside corner - no cabinets around the corner - the customs would have gone right to the corner. The rest of the cabinet runs worked out just fine.
I shopped by talking to various kitchen cabinet dealers in town, phone before I ever set foot in the stores - I told them my specifications for cabinets and they told me if they carried a line which met or exceeded my specs. If the dealer said they had something, then I would go look -- don't waste the dealer's time or yours.
If you are still designing the new kitchen or at least not fully framed -- the space can be made to easily fit stock sized cabinets -- custom look at stock prices! A good kitchen cabinet dealer can help you with sizing, where windows and doors should be located, etc. Many pitfalls can be avoided -- "gee, If that window was just 2" to the left we could do this really well, but since it's not we have to do this instead."
Good luck with the project,
Jim
If it's really an either or situation I'd get the cheapest of one or the other and the best of the other that I could afford within the budget.
That way when you go back later you can replace the cheapo cabinets or counters with top of the line and put the salvage unit in a rent house you're upgrading.
be thinking salvage
"Tell me again, Mr. Ledbetter. What's a Mississippi Flush and how's it beat this hand?
It's a small revolver and any five cards."
Edited 5/26/2005 4:17 pm ET by intrepid_cat
Personally, I'd get the best cabinets, but more importantly the best combination of carcass and hardware I could find.
Countertops can be changed, Not only that, but since they're usually in last, they can be realtively easily changed.
Now, back to cabinets. The tricky part will be in getting enough selection--too many dealers just off a "line" of stuff, and you get what you get. You probably don't need the "fancy" cabinets in a line (vegetable bins, china display cabinets, apothecary drawer cabinets, etc.) What you need (want) is a well made carcass (no cheesy flakeboard, or LDF, or "solid 3/8 american-made plywood!"), with good hardware choices. That's items like self closing hinges & drawer guides. Epoxy-coated drawer guides in pairs, not monorail undermounts.
If you can, see if they'll leave the knob & pull hardware off (there's a bunch of profit in the pulls--they may be very reluctant to omit it). But, since money is tight, better you get el cheapo plastic pulls now, and replace them later. (This presumes that the pull used now will match a desired one later--this can take some research.)
Oh yeah, talk to the counter-top man--see what upgrades he can do on a "down graded" counter top. Ok, the stone tops and splash are out--what about a full-height laminate splash run seamlessly onto the counter top? Or a well-fitted postform top.
That's my bias, at least.
As an installer, I would find it much easier and faster to replace a countertop, especially if it is installed with removal in mind. If the splash is integral, you needn't go craxy with adhesive. If a tile splash, let the bottom row run high as grinding out grout for a thicker top is easier than cutting tile in place. If using applied flat splash sticking, use hot melt glue and silicone instead of ahesive. The silicone caulk should hold fine for a few years worth and shouldn't destroy the wall when removed. One question is the sink; will you choose a budget one now to upgrade or get one you'll want to keep? Same with fixtures.
Removing a counter so as to save and re-install is a chore and risky. Following that with removing cabs and installing (shimming, scribing, etc.) new seems counterproductive(sic). If the budget allows for installing quality cabs now then do so. Not only will you be happier but should you want a new look, a well made cabinet is a better candidate for refacing.
Speaking cost wise, what would the cost be of purchasing budget cabinets (remember wall as well as base to match) plus the cost of new higher grade versus the cost of a budget yet servicable top plus a higher grade top? That might be why they put new roofs on houses instead of new houses under old roofs...
Thanks everyone for your imput! We are taking the ride up to IKEA on Sat. The problem with IKEA is that they do not show much of the cab styles they carry on the website.
Kitchen has the following runs
90" Run - Base Cabinets only. Electric Cooktop in middle of run with oven below. No wall cabinets. Probably Tile on the back and side walls surrounding the run.
72" Island - Base Cabinets with Countertop.
96" Run - Base Cabinets with undermount sink, 24" DW. No wall cabinets.
72" Run - No Cabinets. Looking for a stand alone piece - Antique breakfront or butler's pantry. Trying to add a historic flare to a modern Kitchen.
Not a lot of cabinets, but we have a large walkin Pantry. Antique piece with have upper glass doors to store all dishes & glasses. We do not like the modern Kitchen look with wall cabs wrapping around the entire Kitchen.
We told the Kitchen guy sent to us by our GC that our budget for the cabs and countertops was $10,000. To which he laughed. I have installed Kitchen cabs before and know how to level, scribe, align, shim, etc. I will probably end up installing the Kitchen myself to save $.
Again, thanks for all your help.Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
I would go all the way on both things. Stretch your budget again. Stainless can be done cheaply if you don't have to weld an inside corner onsite. If you do have an L-shape, raise the corner with a piece of granite and kill the stainless under it from each side. This will allow for a drop-in installation. The welded in sinks are nice and reduces your plumbing fixture budget. Roll the back edge up a half and inch and then step it back to the wall. This allows the tile splash to stay up out of the corner for easy cleaning. At the front edge, roll it up a little before bullnosing it down. This keeps water on the counter from making a line across the front of your pants. I did all mine including two welded in sinks and 25 linear feet for around 2000 dollars 18 months ago. Stainless has gone up since then but is still reasonable for counters.
Stretch your budget again! The pain of cheaping out lasts alot longer than the pain of having to scrimp for a year or so. Drive a cheaper car for awhile. It isn't easy to talk yourself into tearing back into that kitchen later. If the kitchen is important to you, do it all now. The cost of opening it back up is more than the cost of the low interest rates that are available now.
If I'm out of line, I apologise in advance but this is the advice that I would give my best friend.
Unless I missed it, you didn't say if you, were going euro or face frame. The Ikea stuff I've worked with was euro. It's ok if you get everything you need on site. The trips to get what whatever could queer your deal. I've seen it happen.If you can go with stock units, I'd suggest you find a Merrilat dealer in your area. Unless you really cheap out, carcasses don't seem to matter a whole lot. Install them well, and you'll have a solid base. You want the showy stuff to look right; face frames, drawer fronts & doors.Get some good looking cabinets, the hardware can be upgraded later. You say you're going to live in this house, do you want to swap out counter tops later? I wouldn't.Of course, like most of the rest have said, loosen up the budget and do the kitchen once, scrimp on something else<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
There are a number of lines of "semi-custom" cabinets. You have to get set sizes, but there are many sizes available. We did KraftMaid cabinets back in 1989 and were very pleased. At that time, the Merrilat seemed to be a lower quality. As I recall, cabinets were about $5,000 in cherry with finger pull routes instead of pulls. I think we had one drawer unit (4 drawers), sink, corner, cooktop base, plus about 3 other base units. 5 uppers as I recall. The only issue with semi-custom is the need to order about 6 to 8 weeks in advance.One of the big box places (Lowes I think) is carrying KraftMaid I think. We used a big appliance retailer that had a kitchen design unit afflicted with it. One of the perks was free design service. Just be sure to examine all of the cabinets upon delivery for any defects.
KraftMaid is available at Home Depot.I agree that the KraftMaid cabinets are a step up from Merrilat.
We went to IKEA today and looked at the Cabinets. The one thing I have to say is that their store setup is great. All options are displayed in the store, in the catalog, and on the computer. Took only about 20 minutes to pick a cabinet and generate a total price.We we not real happy with cabinet designs. To modern for our historic home. We picked out one we could live with and priced it out. Total cost for about 30 linear feet of base cabinets and 6 linear feet of wall cabs is about $3,000. We also went to a custom Design store and looked at the Dynasty line by Omega. Full plywood boxes, cherry fronts, high quality construction. Should have a price by next week. Expecting it to be $10K+.Tomorrow we go to Lowes or HD and price out Kraftmaid. Likely I will also price out Mills Pride RTA cabs.Mike KAmateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Edited 5/29/2005 10:37 am ET by Mike
Having had installations done with Kraft Maid and Crystal cabinetry, I have switched to RTA cabs (faceframed and frameless) with prefinished fronts and drawers. I prefer the RTA (ready-to-assemble) route.
RTA carcase sources are Cab Parts, Voss, Scherr's and others. Drawer boxes, if desired in solid wood with dovetailed corners, are available from Scherr's prefinished. If you want the drawerboxes in melamine with doweled corners, Cab Parts and Voss will do them for you.
Prefinished fronts (doors and drawerheads) are available from Keystone Wood Specialties and Scherr's. I have gotten them from Conestoga, but typically they only sell to cabinet shops. Conestoga makes probably 75 percent of the fronts for the entire US cabinet industry.
Cab Parts is probably the quickest shipper of carcases. We always get the carcases delivered at box installation time, and delay the delivery of drawers and fronts until final finish, after all trim work and painting is mostly wrapped up.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Mike:
We had a new timber-frame house built and went with nice windows (Loewen), flooring (hardwood and Marmoleum), and cabinet (Cabico w/ hidden glides). Our countertop is Wilsonart laminate - our vendor advised us to futher reduce costs by choosing a rolled edge vs. a wooden applied edge. But then we selected a double bowl Elkay sink w/ integral drainboard (not cheap, but don't have to deal with either drips on counter or cheap RubberMaid drainboard).
spend your money on cabinets, they'll be there for a long time
for a "custom" countertop look consider laminating your own, some of the colors and textures available these days will blow your mind and the procedure is not difficult
caulking is not a piece of trim