The bozo that sold me my house finished two of the three bedrooms himself (converted attic space to BR’s).
I’ve noticed that all of the electrical outlets are…let’s see, how can I describe this…”spongey”. That is to say that when a plug is inserted into the outlet, the outlet pushes back into the wall about 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch. There’s no real solid resistance there when you push on the plug. It’s sort of, well, “spongey”.
I took a couple of the cover plates off to have a look and it appears that the problem is twofold.
#1 the boxes are not set flush with the edge of the drywall. They are set back about 1/4 of an inch.
#2 the cutouts for the boxes are too big. The holes in the drywall are cut so large that the “ears” on the recepatacle do not rest on the outside of the wall (as I assume they are supposed to).
Well, I guess I should give the guy some credit. There is one outlet in my daughter’s BR that seems just fine. I took the cover plate off to see what he did differently there. Simple…no box! He just cut a little hole, screwed the receptacle to the drywall, and finished it up real pretty by attaching the coverplate. Nice work!
But hey, I shouldn’t be surprised. This is the same guy who didn’t use a flange when he put the toilet in the new bathroom. Just stuffed the wax ring in the hole and bolted the toilet to the subfloor. It was only leaking for about a year before I discovered it.
So anyway, back to the outlets. How can I fix this?
The only approach I can think of is to cut out a section of drywall around each box large enough so I can reposition the boxes so they’re flush with the outer surface of the drywall. Then cut an appropriately sized hole in the patch so that the receptacle sits properly.
Any thoughts on a better/simpler solution?
TIA
Replies
I'm no electrician, but I 've fixed the problem by using a hacksaw blade with one of those "holders" that lets you work in tight spaces. Cut off the nails holding the box and pull it out. then replace it with an old work box.
Another way to get it up flush w/ the drywall is to use a mud ring on the from of it.
K
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You think you're no electrician...
What's an 'old work box' and what's a 'mud ring'?
I did understand the hacksaw blade thing tho...
Edited 11/27/2002 4:36:56 PM ET by Photog
At your local Big Box, they'll have an assortment of electrical boxes that can be mounted in a hole in the drywall. The ones I use have a flange on the top and bottom, and some "wings" that swing out inside the wall to clamp the drywall to the flanges. http://www.passandseymour.com/whatsnew/deep_plastic_box.html
They are for modifying old work, therefore the term. Once you have the box out of the wall, you can usually get one of them to fill the hole, and hold the outlet.
However, before I removed the old box, I'd make sure the hole wasn't too big for the old work box.
A mud ring is just a flange that attaches to the front of a box to bring it up flush with a plaster job. It's also called a plaster ring, which is probably the correct term.
If your outlets are recessed the right amount, the mud ring should work.
K
Woops! You guys are too quick for me.
Understand the 'mud ring' thing now.
Thanks again!
If the boxes are solid and well attached. Pick up some longer screws and some 3/16 inside pvc pipe and cut it to provide spacers for the socket screws. use some foam in-a-can to fill in around the box. Use the large metal plates to finish. If you need to pull the boxes forward, then use a fine (24 tpi ) hacksaw blade to cut the holding nails and drive 1.25" screws through the side of the box in to the stud. This way with care the drywall won't need work. Turn off the power first!!!
What you need are box extenders. They are like a box, but without the backs. They both fill extend the box and have have a solid place to hold the outlet.
For the one with out a box you will need to get an old work box. There are several different styles. The plastic boxes have a wing on the top and bottom (outside) and a screw. When you turn the screw the wing rotates out and then pulls into the box. The metal boxes have a metal plate on the back with wings that hold it against the drywall. Think of molley and toggle screws.
They won't work at the locations with oversized holes.
This is the best way to handle the problem. Takes 10-20 min per outlet with no sheetrock repair. Have done it many times
I look down my nose at people who dare to look down their nose at people.
This happens. I have some scatter-brained points.
I think it is Arlington Industries which makes a colorful plastic spacer in various thicknesses just for this problem.
You may need longer screws. These are 6-32. Make sure they are Phillips drive.
The convuluted NEC does not allow much bare wood exposed between the front edge of the box and the surface of the wall. Something like 1/8" of an inch but I'm not going to look it up for you. This exposure is dealt with "spark shields" which are flimsy metal boxes sans bottom which surround the receptacle.
You could use some small washers to fill in the gap between the receptacle and the box. Wrapping the copper wire around your cabinet screwdriver and cutting the "spring" to length works too. If you have metal boxes, some set-ups rely on the contact between the receptacle and the box for the grounding.
I would suggest wrapping the receptacle with black electricians phase tape especially when using the spark shields and also when using Romex. That loose naked ground wire can cause exciting trouble.
-Peter
Survey: How do you rate Prospero (on a scale of 1 to 10 - 10 being the highest?
1_ 0.1_ 0.01_
I think Nigel is on the right track -
Heck with all this drywall cutting. Just put some shims behind the outlets and use longer screws. (There are even plastic thingies made for this purpose, if you can find them)You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me.
It sounds like you're dealing with plastic boxes, which I would NEVER use on my own house for a bunch of reasons. Anyway, to fix your problem I would do the following steps:
1) Cut the dry wall out at each outlet. Cut from stud-to-stud and about 1" above and below the box. You'll end up with a 6" X 16" cutout.
2) Remove the plastic, or whatever existing box. Replace with 4" square X 1 1/2" deep metal box with mounting flanges. To this, add a 5/8" mud ring. Double check the mud ring depth, 5/8" usually gets you flush when the flanges of the box are flush to the edge of the stud.
3) Get an extension for your screw gun and fasten with #8 X 1" flat, washer-head screws-NO DRYWALL SCREWS!. Be sure to set the face of the mud ring flush with the wall surface. If it's cocked a little, just bend it in place after it's screwed in and it will stay.
4) Make up new wire connections and remember to pig-tail all outlets.
5) Patching drywall is easy- you're dealing with a square opening.
Good luck!
Thanks!
But again (and sorry) what is a 'mud ring'?
I feel for you.
They make box extenders which are basically 1/4" extensions that bring the front up flush with the wall. This is mainly for boxes that are solidly mounted, but set back too far. I've only had to deal with one box where the drywall hole was too large to grab the flaps on the front of the box. For it, I cut down a 4x4 flat metal plate for a single device so it would fit under one of those oversized plastic covers, and then I screwed it and the device in simultaneously to pull the box ears (previously positioned) in back up tight to the wall. In this case, the hole was right next to a stud with no working room for rebuiling the wall, or using a box with side ears. I have seen where they suggest rebuilding the drywall by inserting pieces of 1/2" plywood at the top and bottom, screwing them in place through the wall, adding drywall to the hole, and then resawing a new correctly sized hole for the old-work box.
Many of my boxes that were mounted in plaster are spongey like you describe, where the layer of plaster is gone and they are loosely screwed into the lath. if screwed tight to the lath, they are too deep to operate the switch effectively. I've been slowly rebuilding these by glueing new pieces of lath on the old lath to bring the front out flush with the wall. Also, with lath I find it imperative to predrill the holes in the lath and using #4 wood screws to prevent splitting.
Photog- I have had success with an aftermarket product made for problems like you're having. It is made of two L shaped sheetmetal pieces with slots for the screws. The two L's slip around and behind the outlet forming a ring around the outlet that bridges the space between the drywall and the outlet. The outlet mounting screws are then tightened to the desired tension.
Or get some copper piping used for refrigerator icemaker lines that can be cut to the exact thickness needed as a style of super thick washers to bridge directly to the box from the outlet with the screw extended inside. You may need to get some extra-length mounting screws depending on how messed up the project is.
Or depending on the amount of space between the outlet and the drywall edge you may be able to just replace the outlet leaving the ears intact to bridge the space.
Or since you have plastic boxes that are secure you can buy some standard plastic boxes and cut the exact thickness needed for a type of ring that will match up with the screw holes. Remove nails:) and cut the screwing face to thickness on your miter saw. It may also be cut at an angle to match a pre-existing box that was nailed crooked in there and create a flat surface for the outlet to be screwed to.
Or saw and bang away and put in new boxes and play drywall man and vacuum the rugs.
Or hire it done and work some OT to cover it.
But I'm a renovator and not an electrician.
After what you described as his homeowner projects I would be suspect of everything in the house and would think it proper to become a detective sleuth. Check it all out and leave no stone unturned. You could have some dangerous situations lurking around, keying on plumbing and electrical. Shine the flashlight around the framing members if you can. Best to ya.
Let the thunder crack and the waves roar.
We're going on.
Edited 11/27/2002 6:21:20 PM ET by rez
What Rez is describing is called a box support. I have never seen one used on a plastic box but I guess it would work. They make another kind of box support exactly for what you want. It's metal and kind of sleeves itself around the box to give it good support. It's what I would use. Check out your local electrical supply house or Lowes or the depot. It takes all the work out of what your doing.
Seeing that the box is halfway throught the drywall......
I take some #14 bare (solid copper) wire and wrap it around my smallest screwdriver shank, making a tight coil. Next the coil is cut to the length of spacer needed. Done, grab a beer and celebrate!
Edited 11/27/2002 8:01:45 PM ET by bake
Edited 11/27/2002 8:02:06 PM ET by bake
Moving the box out is good but mighty involved especially even if you don't get carried away with the saw blade and damage a cable. Wrapping the mounting screw with a coil of wire to take up the slack is time honored and sound but can be trial and error to get it right. They can also unwind as you tighten the screws.
If you don't move the box out so that it protects the paper edge of the drywall using goof rings, box extension rings is a great idea. Get the plastic ones, less chance of a phoof (Technical lingo for a short.), by the box for about $.10 ea at a good electrical supply house. If you do use the metal ones wrapping the receptacle with a little tape can save trouble and don't try using them on a live circuit unless you really like fireworks.
I have used all of the prior methods and give a lack of time or materials will do so again. When I have more than a few to do, common when the house gets a drywall overlay, I use this method:
Get some 1-1/2" long 6-32 screws, 6-32 nuts and a stack of the plastic goof rings. I usually do it live but you will do better killing the circuit. Not safe but hey I'm getting old and have to get my thrills any way I can.
Drop the plate and pull the mounting screws. Pull the top of the receptacle out and thread on a goof ring. Put in a new mounting screw through the receptacle and goof ring. When the tip of the screw shows on the opposite side of the ring thread on a nut. Line up the stack created and twist in the screw a few turns. I usually do the bottom one first as it makes the tighter work of assembling second run, on top, easier. Do the same thing with the remaining mounting.Tighten the screws.
If the nut bottoms out before the receptacle is in place back out the screw while catching the nut with a finger tip and then continue tightening. Holding out on the receptacle slightly allows this to happen a bit easier. I use a crank handle screwdriver but a power screwdriver or even a drill in a pinch makes the whole thing faster. The first one will go slow but after a few I can get helpers to do about one every 5 to 7 minutes without too much trouble. Done right the receptacle should be level with the wall and not push back into the wall even without a cover plate installed. Finish by reinstalling the cover plates. If you have lots to do a mechanics kick stool with a tray for the tools and parts makes the process easier on the back and knees.
It's not just DIY's .............. painted a cube farm (office area) on a fairly new commercial project. Took off the outlet covers ........... the outlets fell into the wall.