I am using Icynene in a roof system for the first time. The rafters are 2x10s. Based on ResCheck, the insulation company quoted 5 1/2″ for the roof, to be sprayed against the roof deck (hot roof, no ventilation). They also offered upgrade thicknesses and pricing (e.g. 7″ and 9 1/4″). I selected 5 1/2″, partially because given the application method (teenager waving a spray gun in 95 deg heat), it is hard to control the thickness and you should end up with more anyway.
After they had sprayed about half the roof and most of the walls, and at the crew leaders request, I started checking walls and the roof for overfill that needed to be cut back and underfill. At the roof, I found many places, primarily in the middle of the rafter bay, where the insulation was not 5 1/2″ thick, but rather 2 3/4″, 3 1/2″, 4″, etc. In other parts of the bay, particularly along the rafters, the insulation tended to exceed 5 1/2″. In a very few areas, it had to be cut back flush (i.e. 9 1/4″ thick).
I say, hey, it isn’t thick enough. The crew leader says, well you are getting an average of 5 1/2″. See those deeper spots?
Over what area do you look for the average depth? Even over 2′ x 2′ squares in many areas the 5 1/2″ average is not being met. I am meeting with the company manager tomorrow to sort it out, but would like feedback from ya’ll.
JD
Replies
average means nothing. if you are paying for 5.5 ( which is not near enough IMO for the roof with ICY) you get a minimum 5.5 It is their concern whether they waste extra on bulges.
My installers always used a prod, like an ice pick or scratchawl to test depth of product as they were applying it.
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I'm with Piffin. 5 1/2 should be a minimum depth.
For all the blather about spray foam being the greatest thing since sliced bread, I have not been real impressed with the consistency.
I selected 5 1/2", partially because given the application method (teenager waving a spray gun in 95 deg heat), it is hard to control the thickness and you should end up with more anyway.
i was laughing pretty hard as i read this thinking you were the one with heat stroke.
when you're a teenager in a full body suit in 95 deg heat, the last thing he would be thinking is " hey let's give this guy a little extra so this takes longer."
carpenter in transition
You are correct. The crew is not happy that I want my 5 1/2" as it will likely involve respraying much of the roof. I have no idea why they don't self check the depth as they go as noted by Piffen. I will suggest this to them as they finish up the the unsprayed sections today.
correct me if I'm wrong (ya, like I have to say that here!) if sprayed too thick the foam doesn't cure properly, smelly sticky mess, or cracks when it dries .. what is the maximum depth it can be (manufacturer's spec), I thought it was somewhere around 4"???
I haven't seen any specifications that indicate a thickness limit, and I looked fairly indepth at the Icynene site last night. The curing process is extremely rapid, and I have never seen uncured icynene (after it has been sprayed).
As a followup to the thread I began, the insulation manager agreed that the low spots needed to be resprayed, so I got the satisfaction I was looking for.
Does the teenager still have his job?
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Yes. He was there today, waving the nozzle and sweating like crazy - it must be 105 deg up by the ceiling and of course they are suited up. I'm not sure if there is any criminal intent in the shortages or just a lack of training or ...
What are these "teenager" things you talking about And what do they do. I remember back in the 80's hearing something about them in the workplace. Someone explain what they are?
Can't find one to hire as a laborer in years (do to the text message).
-Lou
That is because their parents have never taught them to grow up. They are too busy pampering their kids. The parents have forgotten that it is their job to raise their baby to be an adult not children raising babies. I am amazed at how many parents will not let loose of their children and want to "help" them by encouraging them to live at home. When in fact they are teaching them quite the opposite. I have seen the failure among men and women my own age whose parents never made them grow up. They hate their parents for it too.
I hear you bro- Its really not there fault!!! I started working in my dads deli at age 10, I got into this business by building a laminate counter for my dads shop. From then on I knew I wanted to build. Now I'm a cabinet maker/carpenter. The foriegn labor is the future.
-LMC
At our home when I was growing up we had no choice. My parents were dairy farmers. Every day was the same except during the summer. Nine months of school and work. During the summer it was just work.
there was a posting here a while ago, the foam didn't cure, off-gased continually and made a sticky mess!
maybe you had the wrong mix?? I'm no icyene expert, but sprayed other foams ... which requires an accurate mix of two elements to foam up and cure properly.
That is a problem with closed cell foam. So they spray it in lifts to avoid those problems.
Okay, first red flag is when the crew leader asks YOU to check for depth. That means they are working to YOUR standards, not theirs. Definately not a professional approach, in any profession.
Average is bunk - 5.5 is your spec'd min.
If average was OK could I fill every other rafter to 11 and get the same results?
Tell them you are concerned about condensation in the thin areas and if you could have the name of their insurer in case you have a future mold claim.
Does the quote say average or minumum of 5 1/2", or does it specify?
The quote simply states 5 1/2". It does not discuss averages. I, as others who have replied, take that as the minimum. Lets just say I won't be using this company again.
Any places that are not 5.5" are less than specified.it is a basic principle of insulation that the job is no better than its worst point. You can have a house insulated to R40 but iof you leave a window open all year round, guess what!one single stud bay with no insulation will do you nearly as bad as that.it is the weak link in a chain principle. Only one link has to break to render that chain useless for pulling you out of the ditch.Leave the insulation at only 2" in some spots and that is where the mold will grow because they created a dewpoint focus. I have never used ICY because it is open celled and will hold water. This improper install though amplifies the problems with icynene insulation. I would not write the check until they give you what you contracted for.
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I agree. After some sharp 7:00 am words with the manager, we had a third go round at the roof today to get everything up to a minimum of 5.5".
I don't think that many builders have been up at the top of 16' vaulted ceilings with a poker checking their work. Evidently they get away with underfilling as this seems to be their standard operating procedure. These guys run 3 icynene trucks and 1 closed cell truck, in addition to fiberglass, cellulose, and crawlspace crews. They are probably the biggest insulator in the Asheville, NC area.
Where are the building inspectors in that city?
Inspectors are usually so busy w/ immediate life safety code issues that VERY few will truely inspect for energy code stuff ... even if they do, they most often haven't a clew what to look for. No offense to the BOs out there, but it tends to be a fact of life in the vast majority of places I've seen. Yes, there are some very good exceptions to this observations ... just not many.
I am looking for s spray foam in Asheville area Can you recommend anyone or not recommend anyone? Is the company your talking about begin w/ an R?
Thanks
It does. Not recommended. As this is the first insulation company I've used in this area, I can't really recommend anyone. I will be using someone else on the next job though.
Average does mean nothing. I've inspected ceiling insulation and I would not accept large variations and would ignore anyon that said ...'well you got an average'. That's preposterous and only someone trying not to finish his work or do a good job in the first place. I've done energy analyses, too and you want your minimum. If your insulation needs to meet code at a certain R-value, then that is a MINMUM R-value, not an average. Have him correct it and get what you paid for. Sounds like maybe he might have applied it just a bit wide leaving more along the framing. The manufacturer could tell you what they recommend. My guess is they recommend even application/depth.