After going to a local home builders show, I am leaning towards spray foam insulation. Has anyone had any experience with this? It sounds good but I am leary.
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Replies
best there is
Where and what are you using it for?
We use it all the time, only state in the country approved for closed attic use. Stuff is great!
Oak-
What state are you in? What do you mean you are the only state approved for "closed attic use"? If you mean non-vented I hate to let you know your state is not so progressive. The closed or non-vented attic is approved by the IBC and subsequently all states and juristictions that use the 2006 International Building Code. Many BI's still don't know this so it's always good practice to ask first instead of try to show up the BI with a surprize, even if it is lawful.Stu
I live in SW Missouri where we have all four seasons, and quite a bit of humidity. My concern is what would happen if you had a roof leak or something? Where would the water go and how long would it take to realize you had a leak? I'm building a new house and was planning on going with 2x6 walls with blown cellulose, but they said I could use the foam and get by with 2x4. Thanks for any insights.
We use "open cell" foam which will allow water to pass through over time. Most of the application we have used it on have much deeper application space than which you are using. Open cell only has an R value of about 3 per inch, where closed cell is about a 7. We have decided not to use closed cell for the same concerns your speaking of. If your going to vent each rafter bay individually between the foam and under side of roof, that would also allow for the water to escape in the event of a roof leak. Just saw a interesting presentation from PPG on the subject.
I lean that way m'self.
preferring closed cell poly to the open celled polyiso or the icyanurate
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
TyYo,
Short of a SIP it's great!
makes house better insulated stronger and much more quiet..
Price shop like crazy, see about set up charges and etc.. do not , repeat do not take the first bid and run with it..
does it put off any "off gas" like the old foamhyde days..
brownbagg,
not the currant stuff, not that I can detect.
Went to Lowe's yesterday and ordered the floor, wall, and attic insulation (R- 25 rolls for the floor, R-30 batts for the attic, R-13 batts for the walls). Scheduled to be delivered Tuesday. This is for the remodel that I'm doing.
This thread on spray foam has me wondering if I should cancel that order and get some bids on the foam. This house has a crawlspace foundation, brick veneer siding, and a 5/12 vented attic--in South Carolina. The house is 1600 sq. ft., completely gutted at the moment, and everything is 16" OC. Here's what I paid for the insulation that I ordered:
R13 - $487.35
R30 - $963.00
R25 - $881.10
Delivery & taxes - $198.88
Total cost of all insulation delivered: $2530.33
Should I consider doing the foam instead?
MichaelNew knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
Remember how we talked in your other thread about budget-creep? This is a perfect example. You've planned for the least cost, but also least effective, insulation. Now you become aware of an alternative that's much more effective, but will also cost who knows what--50%, 100%, 150% more? What do you do, and how does that affect the other budgeted items?You'll face a lot of choices like this as you go on, so it's best to have a strategy for making such decisions, given a finite budget.
Along the same line:
Are you ready to install the insulation when it arrives or within a couple of days?
Why tie up your money and more important, why have materials for others to steal from the job site available?
I had the impression that you had a good deal of work to get done prior to insulating.
Cloud Hidden,
I'd like to dispute your statement about "FINITE BUDGET"
I'm afraid that's a mind set many people have.. I can afford X# dollars. (monthly payment whatever)
then based on that decision they buy whatever. Invariably that leads to a compromise. They get less house or worse neighborhood or more drive time or make some other compromise so the accounting works..
Well it's a myth..
Your life isn't set in stone. you won't make X#dollars for the rest of your life, you can't even be sure that the job you have will always be there..It might not be your "fault" but due to a corporate/management/ world economic factors..
While you may retain your career, moving could be required. OR in a more positive view you could get a raise, a promotion, win the lottery, inherite Great Aunt Tillies fortune, etc. Inflation can dramatically increase the income while the payments remain the same..
You or a family member could be struck with an expensive affliction.
Life happens..
Meanwhile your stuck with compromises that mean nothing except right now at this moment some accountant is happy.
> I'd like to dispute your statement about "FINITE BUDGET" Did you read the thread in which he discussed his project and his budget? No? And yet you have a strong opinion. For the amount of work he intends to do, and his self-described circumstances, "finite" seems apt. You can dispute that all you want, but at the place Michael is in life and with his house, if he doesn't exercise serious budget planning and control, he could find himself in quite a pickle.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=84534.1
Cloud Hidden,
I'm sorry I didn't mean it specifically regarding him..I meant it in general regarding all home buyers/builders..
There are all these neat little formulas and percentages of income that we're supposed to live by and yet those all imagine that tomorrow will be just like today..
I think people should be required to take a capaitbility test to determine what sort of house they need to buy or live in..
I know far too many people living in homes they don't like or don't properly fit their needs or lifestyle simply because at some point some number cruncher said yes..
I hate to be pigeon holed and I hate to see others pigeon holed.. I'm probably hijacking this thread so I'll consider putting elsewhere or at least starting up my own thread..
Yeh! I do feel strongly about it!
>I didn't mean it specifically regarding himGood, be/c he's risking (by his own comments) being tapped out emotionally, physically, and budget-ly with plenty of work yet to go. Taking issues one at a time--upgrade insulation? upgrade this? upgrade that?--rather than as part of a planned program, will not be good for him in any aspect.
Cloud Hidden,
It's too easy for me sitting where I am in life second guessing others, but that in part is what we do here.. Should you do this or that, really depends on a lot of factors other than what is best, but that's usually the way things are asked..
I must admit that I'm a differant kind of duck.. Instead of going with what is normally done. I asked the basic question everybody should ask.. what do I want..
Then figure out how to get it..
The hard part is deciding what's important to you. First you really have to know yourself and be honest with yourself..
That's massively harder than it seems.. I mean we have all this pier pressure on us, the spouse wants this in part because of the pier pressure she gets and the family wants that in part due to their pier pressure. compromises are made and then budgets are set and then more compromises etc..
ON top of it we all tend to want things, NOW! Which makes looking for the really right home or lot or whatever so much harder..
IN the end our original ambition and desires are so far away that we feel this frustration and unlying anger over the compromises made that instead of a home being this dreamt of castle it becomes just the place we sleep..
Since my project has been cited in this thread as an example of dreams competeing with realities, I thought you guys might like to know that my better half and I have been taking your comments to heart and have been doing a lot of soul searching as a result of it.
We originally planned to just remodel her parents 1400' house and move in it when we finished up (our daughter is buying the house that we currently live in). However, our original remodeling plan quickly blossomed into a project with much greater ambitions. Instead of just remodeling the exisiting structure, we also decided that the front porch would have to be enlarged, a den would need to be added to the rear of the house, and the end of the house would need to be extended to include a double carport. Obviously, these were not minor changes at all. So, after digesting many of the wise suggestions offered here by many friends, we took a step back and asked ourselves the "why" questions.
1. Why must we expand the front porch? We have a roomy front porch on our current house...and we seldom even use it. If we don't use the one we have now, what's the point of insisting on another one? Reality check #1: Let go of the front porch idea.
2. Why do we need to add a new den to the back of the house? My wife wanted to reserve the living room for "formal" entertaining. But, we're not formal people and never have been. We have the kind of friends who feel welcome to open the fridge and make themselves a sandwich if they're hungry. We're not formal people, we don't do "formal" entertainment, and we really have no use for a formal living room. Reality check #2: Let go of the den idea.
3. Why do we need a double carport? We've been married 31 years and we've survived this long without it. Sure, it would be nice to lug in the groceries without getting soaked when it's pouring rain outside. But is it really worth all that expense for such a minor benefit? Maybe not. Reality check #3: Let go of the carport idea.
So, we're back to our senses for the time being. We're just going to remodel the exisiting structure. We still plan to rebrick the house, which some here have frowned upon, but that's one idea that I'm just not ready to let go of yet.
Anyway, you guys here at this forum just don't know how valued you really are to homeowners and DIYer's like myself. Thanks for all you contribute to our lives.
MichaelNew knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
Hi, I guewss I've missed a conversation since I saw you last here.Wise choices, IMO - but if there is any way to sqeaze out money for foiam insulation, it is a worthy investment in most places. But if I recall correctly, your location is a fairly moderate climate, so the payback would be slower coming.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have a foam issue as well. Half my house is 200 years old, with a foundation of stones, bricks, dirt and dead mice. It's not particularly air or water tight. The other half is a year old, has a concrete foundation, insulated on the outside and, so far, it seems pretty tight.
I get a lot of air infiltration into the old space and had a minor pipe freeze last week. In speaking with my contractor, he put me in touch with a guy who does foam insulation of ancient foundations. He came and looked at the old basement and proposed to spray 2 lb. polyurethane all over the inside of the old foundation, including right up to the top of the rim joists/sills.
My questions are:
Does spraying all that foam create a fire risk if it is just spayed on the walls and not covered by something?
Will it stick to the rocks, dirt, bricks, mice, etc.?
Will it create any moisture problems by locking mosture behind the foam?
The estimate is about $2500 to cover the entire old foundation perimeter, about 180 linear feet of foundation. I don't mind spending the money, but don't want to create any problems.
Thanks and my apologies for hijacking this thread, but it seems related to the existing discussion..
Your iinstaller should answer the fire risk question specificly for his product. I don't think there is, but some codes require that it be covered in living spaces for that reason. I have seen it applied as you describe often and never seen a problem from it, even in some that are a dozen years old. It cuts the infiltration out and is a dcent seal against water seepage in small amounts. structturrally for a rubble rock foundation wall, it would be good to replace the dead mice with mortar to point it up first, but that depends how bad it already is.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
michaeldo a search on sarah suzanka. she is a strong believer in many of the points that you mentioned and has acquired quite a following. she also wrote a few books on the topic that you might be interested in
Michael, don't feel so bad. We are in the poor south where every is f-ing expensive. I got a quote ~5 years ago to insulate ~13'x26 space in the basement. We are talking 2x4 walls and asked for equivalent in the ceiling joist cavities. Cheapest quote then was ~$3200 for spray-on foam insulation (others were $3600 and $3850).
At the time, this was more than double what comparable quotes were being offered in NC, TN, and AL. So much for living [closer to SC than] in Atlanta, GA. I guess I need to move up North where the costs are cheaper. :)
Hi Michael,...Thats a hard decision, i'm struggling with it myself...
Our house is also 1,600 sq' w/ 5' tall crawlspace... just got a quote from a company ( airtight ) for hold on to your hat $7,800, this includes
2"thick on704sq'crawlspace
2"thk.on 1,150 sq' main flr walls
2" thk. on 350 sq' 2nd flr gable end walls
2.5" on 1,375sq' exterior wall to roof ridge on a 12/12 pitch
this quote is in north Georgia using closed cell, 1.9psi density,R7 per inch
this pricing averages $1.00 per board foot (1'x1'x1" thick)installed.....
PS this is new construction...and i am looking at cutting my cost in other areas like: no ridge vents,no soffet vents, smaller HVAC system,ect. No labor...
I figure it may take possibly 10 or 15 yrs for it to pay for itself in energy savings...but during this time my home will be more comfortable & hopefully my energy bills would be significantly reduced...i'm 42 years old and not planing on moving ever again
Should i or should i not ?....hmmmm.
hope this helps...
paul......
Out of curiousity, did you get quotes for fiberglas or blown in cellulose, if so please share.
Bruce
Hi Bruce, i did not get any quotes for F/G or Cell....because if i go w/ either one of these it will be material cost only, as i will do the labor.....
I did price materials using 2" thk. Thermax Foam in the crawlspace at about $1,100 plus assy.........and the remainder being fiberglass at a est. cost of about $2,000..
when all said and done it would probably total around $3,500/ $3,800. using these materials.
...paul...
Thank you for further data. So the FG job will cost $3500 min plus your labor. Lets say $4000 total. I think you said the foam was $7600 or so. That is only $3600 more over the stuff that doesn't work for crap and has a cancer warning on every bag. Even at todays energy prices staying constant, the payback is maybe 3 or 4 years max. And we all know oil and electricity is going nowhere but up!Look at it this way, $3600 on the mortgage will cost you about $25 per month. The best insulation can easy save $50-100 every month depending on climate and conditions.You do the math. Stu
Where in SC are you. I have some names for foam in the lowcountry
I would cancel - even with batts, I've found my insul sub can supply and install for the same price as I could just buy it at Depo.
In your case, I would seriously look at Johns Manville "Spider" blown-in fiberglas and a sub. Mixed with glue to fill the open wall cavities; glue turned off to loose-fill the attic (rock must be installed, at least)
Good product.
Forrest
No. It completely stable within a few minutes.
A local homebuilders show is where I saw my first Icynene exhibit. I set up an appointment for a guy to come out two weeks later and give me a quote. It was $2084 for 1560 sq ft of 4" sprayed in. A month later they came and did it. This was two years ago and my last heating bill was under $60 :). Before it was usually over $125. The stuff is that good.
Handyman, painter, wood floor refinisher, property maintenance in Tulsa, OK
I live up by springfield, Mo so we are in the same climate. Did you do the attic with the foam?
I have vaulted ceilings with 2x4 dimensional lumber rafters. A 3/4" layer of polyiso foam board then covers everything to limit thermal bridging. Then the sheetrock.Handyman, painter, wood floor refinisher, property maintenance in Tulsa, OK
We had a sunroom with no insulation, open 4x12 rafters with large skylights. The ceiling was tongue-in-groove (real) 2x6's with the shingles nailed to the other side (surprised us...). We put 4" of polyiso inbetween the rafters, then drywall, and replaced the skylights with modern ones. Much better than probably R-2... In the kitchen cathedral ceiling, we took out the old 1973 acoustic tile, re-insulated with new fiberglass (6" rafters), and put another 1" of polyiso over the rafters to minimize bridging, then drywall.We have large roofs on two cathedral ceiling sections of the house with 3" Homasote (circa R10ish) with 1 or 2" of fiber insulating board, and then shingles. Maybe R10-R15 at most. These are laid over 4x12 pine rafters, spaced ~48" on center. It would be tempting to pull the Homasote off when the great room is ready for a new roof and replace it with SIPs. My loss calculations (assuming no air leaks in the roof) are around 6000 BTU (1/2 ton). A quick calculation, however, is that even if it *only* costs $1/sqft to install, and increased R-value from 10 to 30 with a heat pump and $0.07 electricity, the payback period would be ~15 years in this climate (5500 HDD). The reality is that it would certainly cost *much* more than that. Oh well. Perhaps I could add another layer of insulation over the top instead of removing the Homasote (probably would need decking over top for the shingles to nail to as well).
Was this application to an existing finished home? What type of construction, with or without existing fiberglass insulation?
Existing construction? Yes. The construction is some sort of red block with stucco on the outside, making for walls about 10" thick. and on the inside is the dimensional 2x4 with plaster and lathe. I tore out the plaster and lathe and rewired. I did put fiberglass (there had been none before, typical of houses built in 1930 as mine was) in but was so displeased with its performance I tore it out before drywalling and had the Icynene installed.Handyman, painter, wood floor refinisher, property maintenance in Tulsa, OK
Edited 1/30/2007 9:01 pm by Pebble
Have used it and it's great stuff. Probably the best there is.
That's all we do anymore.
It's what I used here.
Spray foam is better at preventing infiltration than just about anything out there. Post renovation, our house tested at 0.2 ACH, pretty good for a 134-year old girl.
Corbond is great for areas where you need maximum R-value, Icynene and it's other open-celled competitors are better (IMO) for areas where you can trade wall depth for efficiency. Mooney walls and the like are also worth considering to prevent the studs from telegraphing the heat to the great outdoors.
A unvented attic is another great way to reduce infiltration and increase the usable space. Not only does your AC system have a better chance of operating well (if the air handler is installed up there), but the temperature (even w/o heating) are much more stable as well. For example, right now, the attic is only 1 degree cooler than the space below, even though the attic is not heated (no insulation between the attic and the space below).
The only other insulation material I would consider is dense-pack cellulose, if you have enough room for it.
Moony walls? Meaning covering the exterior with foam board? I haven't heard this term. Can you please explain. Thanks
Edited 1/31/2007 7:26 am ET by mahalo
Mooney walls consist of vertical and studs with an overlay of horizontal "studs". The idea being that no stud can traverse the whole wall. Instead, one set goes 1/2 of the way, the other, the rest. Hence, you dramatically reduce the amount of wood via which the studs can "telegraph" the heat (wood has 1/3 the insulative value of icynene, IIRC) from the inside to the outside. On a regular wall, you can "see" the studs with a thermal camera. The mooney wall eliminates that problem.Naturally, insulating the house from the outside (via XPS, for example) may be even more effective. My ideal home (from a heating and cooling perspective) would be a concrete structure with 6" of foam on the outside. That keeps the mass on the inside (where it evens out thermal swings), and the cold/hot on the outside.
I have had spray foam in only two houses.
The first was polyurathane and the second was Icylene.
I felt like the polyurathane was the better product, but the installer I used was excessivly sloppy with overspray. Took forever to clean up the face of the plates and studs.
I primarily use damp spray cellouse but always offer spray foam.
I will not use fiberglass if it can be avoided.
Terry
Thanks for the feedback. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not approaching this remodel in the most cost-effective manner. The clarity always seems to be more abundant when you're scrutinizing someone else's project instead of your own. The reality checks aren't always easy to accept, but I need them and thank you for them.
I bought the insulation because I know it's a "must-have" and I needed to use a 10% coupon that is due to expire this week. I have a secured, insulated storage area where I'll keep it packaged and stored until I'm ready for it.
I'm planning to finish the exterior before proceeding with the interior, but I just haven't had an opportunity yet to work up a materials list for everything that I need outside.
I'm starting to have serious concerns about the budget for this project. The house is paid for, so in a worst case scenario, I could borrow on it to finish up the project, but I had hoped to avoid that. We really want to add a den and expand the front porch. We also really hate the brick and want to replace it or cover it. We realize that we could always do those things sometime in the future, but I've got this house completely gutted, so this is the perfect opportunity to make any major renovations.
I really don't know what to do. Part of me says go for it, and another part says give it up and just start piecing it back together. I've been working my behind off, every spare minute since the first part of December. I'm already physically and mentally drained...and this project still has a long way to go.
MichaelNew knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
welcome to the world of remodeling your own home. i remember while doing mine thinking"i just want to go one day without having to make decisions about this or that.when it's your own it's tough. but heres a little seceret i found on the 10% off coupons. go to ebay and buy you a handful ,try and get the expire dates as far out as you can and look for the sellers that have a coupon that they have to mail you.cost abot 3.00 each. i did what you did at first,if i had a 10 off that was about to expire i would buy way ahead of time and then have to trip over it and move it 10 times.pain in the rear.then found that i could buy whenever. i try to keep 3-5 coupons in the truck all the time.larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
I am thinking about using spray foam under a radiant retrofit on an old house. But the mess of spraying that stuff all over the basement concerns me. When searching for the spray foam cans for insulating around windows, I found this site: http://www.powerfoam.comI don't know anything about it, but it looks like a DIY version.
'Im already physically and mentally drained...and this project still has a long way to go.'Kinda like raising a family.
Stick it out if you can. Get help from friends and family whenever possible.
If this is the house you will be living in, then get the foam! If you're going to sell when finished then go with the fiber glass.
Reasons: foam is about running costs which when living there effect you.
reason: fiber meets code but costs less to buy.
"Took forever to clean up the face of the plates and studs."foamers should clean up after themselves. Make that understood first and then don't write the check until they get it right.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your absolutly right about the clean up.
My problem is I try too hard to be the "good" GC, in trying to see how fast I can write the check to the subs.
I watched as he was spraying it and he had a man following behind scraping the studs. I didn't notice til after he was gone (and paid) that the only really clean portion was the center areas of the studs. Close to the floor and ceiling and especially the inside corners was pathetic.
When the Icylene was done, I told the installer of my concerns and he did a good job of cleaning the studs.
Live and learn. (Too much learning - not enough living)
Terry
Sounds like same guy I had once.I backcharged him and never had to clean up after him again. My labour was more than his helpers was.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm near Boston, and I've used closed cell polyurethane (Corbond II) on the ceiling and walls in the attic (with 6 windows, 3 skylights, and a fireplace), which I've been using as a workshop while I finish the bottom floors. I haven't yet connected the radiant floor heat, but I keep warm by leaving the door to the attic open. If I need more light than the overhead compact fluorescent, 500 watts of halogen shop lamp make the place almost too warm.
With 6-inch rafters on a vaulted ceiling, closed cell is the way to go. Leave the venting out and you get about R-35, and *no* infiltration. Without any air movement, there will be no moist air movement to cause mold problems. Shingle temperature, the other concern, is more related to having shingles any color other than white, rather than effects of minimal airflow below the sheathing.
On a 2x6 cathedral ceiling with fiberglass and an 1-1/2" ventilation space, you'd only get about R-15 (4" x R-3.6/in) ideally. Then there's the effort to seal everything and make sure the batts exactly fit the bays without gaps or scrunching. On an old house, with rafter spacing varying between 20 to 26 inches, that would have been a nightmare to trim all batts, and there would have been a ton of waste. Any air leaks and there would have been huge warm air pressure driving moist air into the rafter bays that will condense on the bottom of very cold ventilation channels.
Closed cell polyurethane is highly resistant to compression (put plywood on a pink rigid foam panel and walk on it), so will add support to keep the rafters from twisting with extra snow load. I don't think there will be seasonal rafter changes because moisture is sealed away from them.
Open cell poly is only R-3.8 per inch and gives no structural support.
---mike...
If you go for Icynene, make sure they give you a warranty- if there's any smell in the space past 3 days of thorough ventilation, it's been done wrong. They must agree to come in, rip it out and replace. If they don't agree to do that up front and in writing, WALK! Find another installer, or another product.
Check with your building inspector- mine wouldn't pass it unless the bays were full and the vapour barrier was in continuous contact with the insulation, or as near to that ideal as possible. That meant a sh*tload of cutting by the foam crew, which they didn't do all that well either. They had a hellacious mess to clean up afterward. And even though they made an effort to mask off windows and doors, they got overspray on everything. Make sure they're thorough or expect to spend a long time scraping with a razor blade.
Good luck getting Prospero's search function to work, but if you can, dig up my thread from last year to find out the particulars of my problem.
The good news is, if it's installed correctly it truly does give exceptional airsealing and insulating performance. The trouble is, nothing is idiot-proof, and this stuff appears to be no more idiot-resistant than any otherwise good technique.
We've been using Sealection 500 (Demelac) foam. and it works great! don't plan to go back. a couple of caveats however.
due to flame spread issues you can't spray more than the depth of your rafters so if you frame with 2x6's you cant go deeper than 5" on the spray. Word is that BioBase doesn't have this limitation.
Demelac R-value is R-19 for 5" and R-23 for 7" but you gain huge performance improvements over similar R-value fiberglass due to complete removal of air washing issues, ability to seal the attic and any ductwork up there. Don't have to install ridge vent or soffit vent. I recommend that if you go this route you do a full energy star computer performance modeling prior to pulling permits and make the energy star sheet part of your permit package so the inspector will let you slide on the low attic R-value. Our homes have been Energy Star certifying at more than 60% better than code with 7" of foam in the roof. Great soundproofing too.
If you are using asphalt shingles you need to stick with Elk or Certainteed brands at this time. as they are the only ones who warrantee with spray foam and no ventilation.
We do exposed rafter tails and some foam inevitably leaks out through the sofitt blocking so we've learned to paint the exterior after the foam is sprayed.
Icenene is the best there is but in my opinion not worth the extra cash over Demelac.
In NC we have a new company starting up that sprays a sealing coat of 1" of foam in the walls and tops it off with fiberglass insulation, saves a lot of cash and gets the same R-value. But you get your airwashing problems back. Still, a good deal.
Some guys are foaming the roofs and using fiberglass in the walls. I'm foaming walls and roof and fiberglassing my floors over a tented crawl (modified sealed crawl).
It's fun to watch them spray it. I always send my homeowners out on spray foam day with a video camera. The particles float around in the air and stick to every thing though so warn them to stand back with that expensive video camera. We had one enthisiastic homeowner get her camera spray foamed by standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.
All the best
Michael
"Icenene is the best there is"Hate to bust your bubble, but icy is only half the insulation Corbond is.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What is Corbond? For what it's worth we've never been on a job here in NC where we could justify the expense of Icenene over Demelac, and so have never used Icenene. But I do appreciate the hydrophobic qualities of Icenene.
brand name of a closed cell polyurethane foam r-7. They are the ones who have done most of the studies and research backing up foam claims for performance in comparison to FG batts, whether roof venting is needed, eetc. book and class called, "Walls that work"
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Icynene, Corbond, Demilac, anything foamed in place is better than fiberglass. Any of the foam stuffs will work for me.Handyman, painter, wood floor refinisher, property maintenance in Tulsa, OK
To all
Previous discussions have been of the application of foam insulation from the inside of the structure prior to drywall installation. I am interested in injecting the foam into finished stud walls (1/2"drywall, 2X4 studs with fiberglass insulation and 1/2" fiberboard sheathing) prior to residing the exterior of home. The theory seems sound. Through not eliminating the 2X4 thermal bridge; I should gain R-value, eliminate air infiltration and not create any moisture problems. Has anyone had any experience with this application? How effective can I expect it to be? 'RetroFoam' of Michigan by 'Polymaster Insulating Foams' is the only contractor/product found so far. Is this a good product and are they competent contractors? Can anyone recommend other products/contractors?
For each there own. That's why I install both Icynene and Corbond!
At last!
An unbiassed opinion.In what situations would you chooose or recommend the icy instead of Corbond?Are there other peculiarities or differences in how either are installed? I had already done a few polyurethane foam jobs when icy came along. I started to investigate it because of advertising claims and found that it was water permeable, offerrd barely more htan half the r-value of poly, and cost just about the same, so for me, the choice was clear - icy gave me less insulation for the same money, and no VB built in.but I am interested in the restless pursuit of knowledge, in knowing why one would recommend it.
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The Icynene is water blown and does not off gas. For this reason I use this exclusively where the client has any chemical sensitivities just to be safe.In climates less than 7200 HDD no vapor barrier is reqd or recommended. So in my climate no VB reqd over Icynene. So in the normal heated space application like house walls and roofline I use Icynene.Icynene is less expensive than Corbond per inch thickness or for the same R value. At least with me that is.I can spray Icy in colder conditions than Corbond so winter is less of a problem.Being open cell offers an advantage in that a roof leak will go straight through and let you know there is a problem. Some people really like that.The water permiable thing is not a problem like some perceive. The big deal is stopping warm moist air from contacting the cold condensing surfaces. Icynene does that just fine. If some molecules of water vapor diffuse thru 3-5" of solid Icynene it's on a very small scale relative to FG or cellulose letting bulk air just blast thru.I use Corbond when requested and when high moisture requires. We just did a house built on piers. We did the walls and roofline with Icynene. We will spray and seal the floor when it gets warmer with Corbond due to higher moisture just above the dirt.We sprayed 4 pool houses this summer with Corbond. They have a bullet proof system for pool houses!! Check it out before building any high moisture environments like a pool house!Icynene has better sound absorption as well. I use that in theater rooms and interior walls upon request. We also spray the tub and shower surrounds and water drain drops for sound. IMO Icynene does the same, or very close, of the job urethane does at less cost.Stu
i'm gonna report you for saying such balanced factual stuff!;)actually, you oughta contact one of the editors. I'd think a comparative article would be good in the magazine.
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Funny you mentioned that.... I just got an email from the editor. I just have to get it into the schedule!Stu
LOL
"I just got an email from the editor."I guess great minds run around in small circles...
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Just a quick note on the "cost" of spray foam...The same basic chemicals are used to produce all 2 part spray foam. From my supplier 1/2 lb is a slightly higher price (less than 10%) than 2 lb.While the yiield is nearly 4 times the number of board feet. So even after calculating the additional waste and cost of 1/2 lb. I can install the same R-value for less.R value of 2 lb aged 6.8 retail $1 bd ft.
R value of 1/2 lb aged 3.8 retail $.42 2 inches 2 lb. R 13.6 @ $2 -vs- 4" of 1/2 lb. R 15.2 @ $1.68I install both also, each has it's place. Garett