Replies

1. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 04, 2009 10:00pm | #1

   good question.....

   Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
1. 
   Billy | Feb 04, 2009 10:58pm | #2

   Mike,

   I thought you would be interested in this...  I found a spray foam message board with pros who spray foam every day.  I'll let you know what they have to say.

   By the way, when you've found foam tunneled with ant or termite nests was it always foam boards or did you also find it in spray foam?  Also, could you tell whether the foam was open or closed cell?  Not that it should make any difference...

   Billy

1. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 05, 2009 01:13am | #3

   my  experience  was  with  foam  board  ... both blue  ( Styro-SM  )   and  pink ...  (Foam-ul-R )

   and  one  closed  cell  with foil  face  (  Thermax ?????  )

    

   i  haven't  seen  any  spray  foam  up  close  &  personalMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   Billy | Feb 05, 2009 06:16pm | #4

   Mike,

   There's a really good discussion forum for anyone interested in spray foam issues, problems, solutions, equipment, and proper application.  Very knowledgable spray foam pros over there.

   Here's a discussion thread I started and they invited folks to post over there with any firsthand knowledge of insect issues in foam.  Maybe you want to say something over there or at least follow the discussion.

   http://www.sprayfoam.com/mnps/boards.cfm?mnboardid=5&mnforumid=2&showdays=0&startat=1

   Billy

1. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 05, 2009 07:38pm | #7

   billy.....  my  first inkling  was  a  house  we  built  about  1990  in  a pine  forest

   it  was  2x4 with  1"  of  foil faced  Thermax  (???? )  and  1/2 "  cdx  ply   over  that

   i  was  walking  the  owner  thru one day  before  the drywall  was  installed  and  i   heard  a crunching  sound  coming  from the  wall

   i took  a pen  knife  and  opened  up  the  backside  of the  foil faced  foam..  and  bout  20  carpenter  ants  came  tumbling  out

    

   my  second  inkling  was  going  back   to  add a window  to a house  we  had  remodeled about  1988....  we  added the window  in  '95

   same  construction  as  the  first  example...  the  foam  was  loaded  with  many  kinds  of  insects  in  vast  array...   some  looked  like  worms....i couldn't   identify  them...  there   were  also   carpenter  ants

    

   i  have  seen  the  same   thing  in  Foamul-R  (  pink  board )  and  in  Styro -SM  (  blue board )

   the  most  recent  was  last  summer  on  two  window jobs...  the  same  plywood,  foam,  stud  sandwich

   here  is  a job  we  resided  the  whole  house  with  FiberCement...

   this  job  was  1" Styro-SM  over  1/2"  plywood  over  the  studs

   and  the  old  siding  was vertical T&G  cedar siding

   here's  what  the   surface  looked  like after   we  stripped  the  cedar  siding

   View Image

   and   here  you  can see  the  extensive  tunneling  we  often  find

   View Image

   and  here's  what  the  foam   is  concealing

   View Image

   that's  termite damage...  the  whole  house  and  surrounding  soil has  now  been  treated

    

   Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   Edited 2/5/2009 11:39 am ET by MikeSmith

   Edited 2/5/2009 11:40 am ET by MikeSmith

   Edited 2/5/2009 11:42 am ET by MikeSmith

   Edited 2/5/2009 11:45 am ET by MikeSmith

2. 
   BilljustBill | Feb 05, 2009 08:01pm | #8

   Mike,

   Thank you for posting those informative and scary pictures.  Not being able to see sure can lead to some eye-opening damage!!

   Is the white on the insulation board a type of fiberglass matting that gives the foam board some strength to keep it from splitting when it's installed?

   I think I know what those "Worms" you saw in with the other insects...  Actually, they may be a type of snake....  In a public school built with brick and mortar, we'd find them on the carpet near the interior classroom walls at least once a year. We sent samples to the local Jr. College and they helped identify them, so we could have the pest control company gives us a plan of action.... Some years, numbers were more intense than others.  What they are, is a variety of miniature snake that eats termites and their eggs.

   Do you know what type of spraying was used in the ground and in the walls that stopped the ants and everything else?

      Bill

3. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 05, 2009 08:46pm | #10

   no...the white is just color fade
   that's just blue Styro-SMMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

4. 
   BilljustBill | Feb 05, 2009 08:53pm | #11

   I ran across some 1-1/2" thick, 4x8' foam sheets that have a fiberglass covering on both sides.  The foam is a light yellowish color...  Any idea what it is? 

   It came from a new roofing job on a flat roof building when new foam and hot tar gravel roof was put in.

   Thanks,

   Bill

5. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 05, 2009 10:57pm | #13

    don't  know  the trade  name...  but  it sounds  like  a lot   of  the  products  used  with  commercial  roofsMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

6. 
   Piffin | Feb 07, 2009 03:55pm | #19

   Yes, the surface bonding is to provide some integrity and a better surface for adhering the roof materials to. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

7. 
   bk24 | Feb 07, 2009 08:47am | #17

   Bill-

        The foam you're asking about is polyisocyanurate foam.

8. 
   Matt | Feb 07, 2009 04:19pm | #21

   >> 

    

   I ran across some 1-1/2" thick, 4x8' foam sheets that have a fiberglass covering on both sides.  The foam is a light yellowish color...  Any idea what it is?  <<

   Could be Dense Glass.  We use it to create a fire rated assembly between town house units installing it between metal chanels.  See attached.  I don't know if it is used on roofs or not. 

   Edited 2/7/2009 9:07 pm ET by Matt

   
9. 
   Matt | Feb 08, 2009 05:15am | #23

   I messed up on the pics - let me re-post them...

   
10. 
    Billy | Feb 05, 2009 08:11pm | #9

    Wow, the pictures say it all.  Thanks for posting those.

    Billy

11. 
    Billy | Feb 08, 2009 06:38pm | #24

    Mike,

    Here's a study that points out the potential insect problems with using foam on the exterior.

    http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/insulating_on_the_outside.html

    Here's the excerpt below.

    It's too bad Mason hasn't come back to offer additional comments on borates in spray foam.

    Billy

    ===============

    InsectsI clearly remember my first experience with ants in rigid foam insulation. A crewmember arrived in my office with a bag of what looked like the foam “peanuts” used for packing fragile items. It was ant-chewed rigid foam insulation removed from the sidewall of a remodel job he was working on. Certainly not an epidemic, but since that time I have discovered several ant infestations in stress skin panels and rigid foam sheathing.Carpenter ants thrive in damp climates like those found in densely populated coastal regions. They are accidental tourists in the dryer Southwestern states. Unlike termites, ants don't eat wood or foam for its nutritional value. They merely use it for shelter. And foam makes a nice shelter! Ants like to nest in foam because it’s soft and easy to chew. Stress skin panel manufacturers have taken notice. In fact they advertise stress skin panels treated with boric acid promising reduced likelihood of ant infestation. Although I have heard that borate-treated foam sheathing is available, I have not seen any sold at lumberyards. In fact, since ants chew foam in a small minority of homes, it seems impractical to treat foam sheathing with insecticide. The best way to minimize ant damage is to follow good ant prevention practices on the building site.Ants may be a nuisance, but termites pose a structural threat. As a nation, we spend two-thirds of our annual pest control budget on termites. The greatest threat exists where the average annual outdoor temperature exceeds 50 degrees. However, termites readily venture north into the comfort of centrally heated homes. When insulating foam is used to wrap the exterior of a home, it provides an undetected pathway connecting soil to structure. Termites can tunnel from the soil up behind the foam panels and attack the structure of a house without being noticed. Building codes are clear. Section R324.4 in the International Residential Code (IRC) requires that in areas where the probability of termite infestation is very heavy, including California, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina; foam plastic can not be installed on the exterior face or under foundation walls or slabs located below grade. The clearance between foam plastics installed above grade and exposed earth must be at least 6 inches. This requirement allows you to track termite activity. If you live in area with even moderate termite probability (anything south of a line drawn from southern Maine to southern Oregon) it is a good idea to use termite shields and provide a vision strip between soil and the foam used on the exterior of the house.

12. 
    fingersandtoes | Feb 09, 2009 09:43am | #25

    Can you think of any coating that would provide a physical rather than chemical barrier to insects that you could spray onto foam sheats?

13. 
    Billy | Feb 09, 2009 04:46pm | #26

    I can't think of anything... you're thinking of something tough enough for insects, but that would lay flat enough to side over... (I guess this rules out gunnite!) plus you might have to consider any vapor barrier issues.

    Billy

14. 
    fingersandtoes | Feb 09, 2009 07:05pm | #27

    The primary spot it is hard to get away from using foam is to insulate the concrete walls of crawlspaces on either the inside or below grade outside. In either case it's hard to protect and inspect. I guess old surfboards would do the trick...

2. 
   masonknowles | Feb 05, 2009 06:44pm | #5

   I am not aware of any sprayfoam supplier that has included borate or other insect repelling chemicals in their formulas. (My apologies to any supplier that has included them in their formula. If you have please let us know) However, suppliers and chemical companies (beginning with Dupont in the mid 1960s) have tested sprayfoam against insect/termite infestation. The Dupont study buried foam for 10 years in a hot humid climtate (Houston, TX). The foam maintained its physical properties and had only slight termite damage.

   Insects (particularly termites and carpenter ants) can burrow into sprayfoam. But, the insects will follow the path of least resistance towards food. If sprayfoam is blocking their path to it, they can burrow through it. But they will follow the path of least resistance first. So, if there are cracks, gaps and crevices in a foundation wall and/or insulation boards, the insects will more easily make their way into the structure. With sprayfoam, they have an impediment that requires some additonal effort.

   I typically see insect damage in foam on roofing applications where old rotten wood was sprayed on the edges (wood nailers, fascia, etc). The insects are trapped by the foam and can't get out without burrowing into the foam. After they are in the foam, they make their homes there.

   I have not seen or heard of much damage from termites in below grade foundations.

   I would like to hear some first hand accounts from readers on this issue. Have any of you seen termite damage to houses or buildings in below grade applications when sprayfoam was installed as insulation below grade?

1. 
   fingersandtoes | Feb 05, 2009 07:33pm | #6

   "the insects will follow the path of least resistance towards food"It's not only food carpenter ants want. They like foam as a nesting site and will excavate large voids in foam sheets for their colonies. I have not seen this scale of destruction in sprayed foam because I haven't worked on any projects where it has been used as a primary insulation. But I have seen them excavate access tunnels in spray foam around windows, and see no difference in the composition of spray vs board that would make it immune to attack.

2. 
   frenchy | Feb 05, 2009 08:56pm | #12

   We don't have termits.  too cold! however we do have severe carpenter ant infestations. 

     Since my foundation is ICF's I was worried about the issue. I feared infestation from the ICF's to The SIP's and then into my timbers.. regular checks fail to revel any sign of carpenter ant infestation..

    If any sign should appear It is simplicity to treat and no worse than all those wood homes nearby. 

1. 
   fingersandtoes | Feb 06, 2009 03:41am | #14

   Carpenter ants choose rotten wood to built nests, and for the most part avoid tunneling through wood that does not show signs of decay. Foam mimics the consistency of decaying wood, and if given the choice carpenter ants will tunnel and nest in foam over healthy lumber. So yes it is "worse than all those wood homes nearby"

3. 
   stevedemetrick | Feb 06, 2009 07:31am | #15

   I do have first hand experience with carpenter ants and foam. I had carpenter ants nesting in the foam insulation in my house while it was under construction about 6 years ago. I was fortunate to stumble upon the nest when I pulled out some foam to install some additional framing. To quote my exterminator, "foam is an ideal nesting material for ants". He also sees a lot of ant nests in the foam insulation found in outdoor hot tubs. The way he explained it, ants need food, water, and shelter, eliminate one of the three and the ants won't stay around. The solution at the time was to fumigate the nest and spray the exterior perimeter of the house to cut off their food supply chain. Completing the house has controlled the moisture problem, and we have the exterior sprayed every year, which given our location I would probably have to do regardless of the insulation. We've been in the house 3 1/2 years now with no signs of an ant problem.
   I don't think that carpenter ants are necessarily attracted to foam, but given the right variables, they will move right in very easily.
   Here's another situation. On my current project, we've discovered that mice will tunnel right through spray foam. We insulated the floor system above the dirt crawl space on our current project with closed cell foam. Upon crawling down under there the other week, we discovered numerous holes in the foam. A mouse actually peaked out of one of them while we were down there. We've since discovered holes along the floor/wall intersections where they've chewed their way into the house. We sprayed the hole closed, and the next day it was chewed right through again. Hopefully the baseboard will stop them. Enough holes like these over time will certainly lessen the air sealing value of the foam insulation.

4. 
   Billy | Feb 07, 2009 07:53am | #16

   Mason,

   Do you know of any reason borates would interfere with the spray foam chemistry?  Boric acid is soluble in water but I don't know if it would dissolve in the components of spray foam, or if it would react chemically.  Organic chemistry gets complex quickly.

   There's a product called Boracare that is an insect and mold repellant that is a solution of a borate salt (Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate) in a glycol liquid carrier that penetrates deeply into wood.  I wonder if Dow or any of the other spray foam manufacturers have tested mixing the borate salt in their spray foam chemicals?

   I poked around using Google and learned that borate salts are also used as flame retardants.  I also found a patent that specifically mentions mixing borates with urea to make a number of things including polyurethane foam with flame retardant and termite resistant properties.  See US Patent 6423251 "Urea and Borates for Fire and Termite Control." http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6423251/description.html

   The same inventor has another patent on a flame-retardant polyurethane foam using boric acid http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5075343/description.html

   Anyway, it looks like someone out there has experimented with these mixtures.  It's too bad no one has brought it to market.  As spray foam gets used more and more, I would think insect resistance and control could become a good feature and a selling point.

   Billy

1. 
   Piffin | Feb 07, 2009 04:06pm | #20

   I recall reading that borates added to foam reduces the R-value somewhat. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   Piffin | Feb 07, 2009 03:47pm | #18

   I know Corbond has an additive to prevent insects, but don't know if it is borates or something else.

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   Billy | Feb 07, 2009 05:36pm | #22

   <<I know Corbond has an additive to prevent insects, but don't know if it is borates or something else.>>

   Interesting -- I recall someone saying that a while back but I couldn't find anything about this on Corbond's website.http://www.corbond.com/main.htm

   I do see claims that sprayfoam makes home more insect resistant because it seals the cracks.  If borates lower the R value of foam I can understand why foam manufacturers might not push it, because R value is what people look at first. I would take a slightly lower R value to know I'm not adding insect nesting spaces to a home.  I doubt cellulose would be very popular if it didn't contain insect chemicals.

   Here's an interesting article that compares the R value of Corbond with other foam products:http://www.corbond.com/pdf/JLC%20write-up.pdf

   Billy

   Edited 2/7/2009 9:37 am ET by Billy

   Edited 2/7/2009 9:48 am ET by Billy

4. 
   jasmine_oliver | Jan 03, 2024 01:32am | #28

   As of my last knowledge update in January 2022, some spray foam manufacturers offer formulations with borates for insect control. R-Control's Performguard line includes borates in foam panels, but specific information about spray foam with borates may require checking with manufacturers or industry updates for the latest products as of 2024.