Replies

1. 
   Phill_Giles | Dec 05, 2000 05:09am | #1

   *
   If you're starting from ground zero, and you are, then please consider a HVLP sprayer - they are terrific for the majority of finishes. Those Wagner airless sprayers will do a decent job on a fence, even siding; but, I suspect you'll be disappointed with the results if you use it for varnish or lacquer.

1. 
   George_Lentulo | Dec 05, 2000 05:50pm | #2

   *HVLP - Capspray, which was bought out by Wagner several years ago. Graco has a good system. I'm sure there are many others. HVLP are wonderfully stingy w/ material (paint/lacquer) and the spray can be set down to do touch-ups in confined areas. I have owned a couple, and my feeling is any under about $800.00 are not worth the money spent for professional production use.Airless is the way to go, though, if you have high-volume, on-site construction painting to do. Wagner, Graco, and Speeflow command the market around here, but there are other quality pumps out there as well. If you need to move a lot of material through your gun every day, as on a construction site - Airless leaves HVLP back at the starting gate.Geo.

1. 
   Jim_Walters | Dec 05, 2000 06:38pm | #3

   *Hi George,Are you saying that hvlp needs air and the other kind doesn't? How large a compressor?The airless would be my choice if I needed another compressor. I usually build one-off non production kind of stuff and would probably only use the outfit once or twice a month so I wouldn't think I'd need a high end product. Know of a good semi-cheapy? Thanks

1. 
   Ron_Teti | Dec 05, 2000 08:38pm | #4

   *I use the campbell hausefeld . I believe its the 2500. Its a 2 stage turbine HVLP. I also build Non production items and have found this sprayer adequate for my needs. It runs at about 300 bucks at the HD.They do have a smaller model which runs a little less. If I have my way though i would buy a 3 stage turbine HVLP. I really like the one by enduro but jim much like you the 800 bucks is a little to much for me at this time. Jim a HVLP uses a turbine to provide a large volume of air at a low pressure, there are models which are compressor powered also. The airless uses a pump not air to propell the material it is also not generally used for finish work .

1. 
   Jason | Dec 05, 2000 11:32pm | #5

   *We use a Devibliss "Finishline" Conversion HVLP spray gun (about $180). Does a magnificent job even on fairly large jobs and projects. Used it with a Hitachi air compressor once (2hp, 4 gallon), which I would not recommend; ran constantly. Now run it off of a Devibliss 30 gallon/5HP. Whole outfit was less than $700. We use it for interior remodels for one or two rooms (bathroom and kitchen for example). Anything larger and we use airless sprayer. We prespray all of our trim now, whether latex or stain/varnish, and spray wooden boats as well. You might also check out Sherwin Williams--they sell their own brand (I believe it's a Graco relabeled), Graco, Speedflo, etc. Also, you might want to check out some old Fine Woodworking magazines; I believe there was an article three or four years ago about making your own HVLP turbine unit; it's basically nothing more than a box and motor. Hope this helps.

2. 
   Phill_Giles | Dec 06, 2000 05:32am | #6

   *Love that gun, but it sure does gobble air. I like the Fuji HVLP spray unit.

3. 
   Jim_Walters | Dec 06, 2000 12:33pm | #7

   *Thanks guys, I'm going HVLP hunting.

4. 
   George_Lentulo | Dec 06, 2000 04:49pm | #8

   *Jim,Apologies for not answering your question sooner. I pretty much agree w/ the consensus here - you would be best served w/ an HVLP for your needs. Are you building cabinets, or what?I had forgotten about he DeVilbiss gun - had one for years that I liked real well.To answer your question: HVLP needs air to atomize the material, which exits the tip under low pressure - generally in the 12 to 25 psi range. The mixture takes place at the tip, and the unit itself has a turbine to provide the air. Consequently, wherever you point the gun, air is blowing out.There are basically two types of guns - bleeder and non-bleeder - the first has air coming out all the time, the second begins the air stream when the trigger is depressed half-way (material exits when trigger is depressed the rest of the way). For the most part I prefer the non-bleeder, but the Capspray 8000 I've got now is a bleeder type, and I'm happy with it.If using a pressure pot, a small compressor of sorts pumps air into it to pressurize the pot - if using a cup-gun only, the passage of air across an orifice pressurizes the cup by means of a one-way valve, generally consisting of some small diaphram of sorts. Which way you go depends on how often you'll need to stop and re-fill the cup - larger jobs go more quickly w/ a large pot of material at the start of your line.Airless atomizes the material solely by means of high-pressure (+/-1,500 to 3,000+ psi) through a tiny orifice at the tip. Airless is used for finish work on larger construction sites for on-site finishing. A skilled spray man can set up a spray room on-site and finish a boatload of doors or cabinets in a hurry. As I noted earlier, one can move a whole lot of material through an airless line.Shop operations generally use a pressure pot or a cup gun - whether HVLP or conventional.You might find a CAPSPRAY (Wagner's professional line) for $500.00 or so at a professional paint store. One thing to consider is the old "Time-Is-Money". The cheaper the system, the slower it works (less output) for one. I've found that spraying cabinets with low-end equipment is money wasted, but for the occasional user it might serve you well to buy cheaply (when I hear Cambell-Hausfield, I hear "Cheap") and then as you sell some stuff and volume picks up, go to a higher production HVLP system.But like anything else, you get what you pay for.Geo.

5. 
   jim_"crazy_legs"_blodg | Dec 06, 2000 05:19pm | #9

   *Another vote for HVLP. I think the best thing you can do is find a paint/finish dealer you are comfortable with and talk to them about it. They usually sell several different types of equipment. They'll know what finishes are compatible with what equipment, and you'll have a support system when you need one. There's something to be said for dealing with pros.

6. 
   G.LaLonde | Dec 06, 2000 05:39pm | #10

   *George, Do you use your HVLP setup for spraying doors or trim with latex? I have a Fugi 3-stage that I use a lot with oils but have never tried spraying latex with it. Now that low gloss oils are getting hard to find, I'm going to try latex. Any suggestions on using the sprayer I have with latex? I do have one larger spray nozzle but I don't have the largest they make.

7. 
   Phill_Giles | Dec 06, 2000 06:41pm | #11

   *HD sell an additive for Latex paint to make it more "sprayable" (sorry, forget the brand name and I don't have any on-hand). Works quite well.

8. 
   G.LaLonde | Dec 06, 2000 10:08pm | #12

   *Phill, I think you're talking about Floetrol. I know that works well, but what I'm trying to find out is info about thinning requirements, nozzles sizes, spraying techniques etc.

9. 
   George_Lentulo | Dec 07, 2000 04:17am | #13

   *G. LaLonde,Re: Latex in the HVLP: I know I've done it, but can't remember when. I usually spray solvent-based materials with it (enamels and lacquers).However, I have enough experience and exposure to be able to advise you to thin it (Floetrol, water) a bit and to spray it like you would oil. In other words, smallish tip size and a smooth, steady, fluid, and quick hand action.I have found that the larger the orifice size w/ HVLP, the "grainier" or bumpier the finish. This is overcome through greater atomization, which is a function of the turbine. Therefore, the more expensive rigs have more powerful turbines, which in turn means larger orifice capacity, which in turn allows for a greater amount of material to be delivered more quickly.Conversely, the thinner your material, the easier it is also for your rig to atomize it. But obviously, there is a point beyond which you have thinned it too much, and coverage or durability suffers. And you then need to build up many more coats.In my experience airless is used on construction sites for doors and trim, and the HVLP is reserved for touch-up work or work in confined or finished areas (i.e.; lacquering cabinets in an occupied house).Geo.

10. 
    G.LaLonde | Dec 07, 2000 04:35am | #14

    *Thanks George... I have been thinking about getting another airless for this task. I have an old diaphram type that requires you to thin latex before it will suck it up. It's ready for replacement. Any suggestions for a good airless setup just for door and trim work ( not wall painting )? I want one-coat coverage if possible. I assume I can get that with latex? Price is no problem, but I don't want to buy a bigger machine than I need. Looking for quality!! Anybody else have any thoughts on this?

11. 
    Adrian_Wilson | Dec 07, 2000 04:44am | #15

    *Airless for paint, air-assisted airless (Kremlin or Asturo) for higher production furniture and cabinetry finishing, HVLP with pressure pot for medium production, HVLP cup gun or 3 stage turbine for low production (I think Fuji is the best bargain on the street for a turbine). Check out Asturo (fairly new in the North American market) for excellent quality and reasonable prices.

12. 
    Joe_Fusco_ | Dec 07, 2000 05:01am | #16

    *G.LaLonde,

    I use two HVLP guns. One is a CH cost me about $200.00 and an Accuspray with a 4 stage turbine that ran about $1300.00. I get some incredible finishes with my Accuspary at about the same caliber as automotive finishes.I originally purchased the Accuspray because I wanted to spray latex and was not getting the greatest results with my CH. The bigger turbine would help atomize the heavier latex and it would spray better. After I bought it I just could not bring myself to spray latex with it. I only spray lacquers with it now.So not using the AS for latex I just keep experimenting with my CH gun. I used water, Flotrol and even special additives made for waterborne lacquers, none gave really great results. Then one day I just thought I'd give plain old denatured alcohol a try and bingo! the stuff sprayed great. I've been using it for about four years now. Some may frown on the use of denatured alcohol, but it sure does a great job.

    View Image © 1999-2000

13. 
    George_Lentulo | Dec 07, 2000 06:43am | #17

    *Joe Fusco,Do you mean denatured alcohol in your late/acrylic/water-based whatever? What do you think gives you the better results then? Quick flash time (evaporation)?Interesting. Do you get any problems w/ the sheen - i.e.; sheen comes out less glossy than you wanted, or more shiny in some areas and less so in others?I've heard the Accuspray is a good piece of equipment - it's made by Graco, isn't it? The $1,300.00 price range sounds about right for a good piece of spray equipment.George

14. 
    Phill_Giles | Dec 07, 2000 07:22am | #18

    *Ah, the Fuji comes (well, I assume it still does) with #3 nozzel, which will spray latex, varnish, and lacquer; but, a #4 is better for latex and a #2 is better for the other two (you'd use a #5 for oil-based enamel). I think it's a strategy to get you to buy more nozzels, which are expensive for what they are IMHO. There are instructions on the paint can about how much you can thin the paint; and, you can buy a rube-goldberg viscosity estimator if you want to get deep into this. I just go with the 5%-7% Floetrol stuff. I do know guys who thin latex with white shellac (not good blond flake shellac; just the cheapo white stuff they sell at the yard, I personally don't think it's real shellac, but that's another topic) and it works; however, I'm sure reluctant to try it. The net effect is that the latex is dry about the same time as it hits the surface. Be warned, latex wears out the nozzel, and fairly quickly too (does it do that to an airless sprayer too ?).

15. 
    Joe_Fusco_ | Dec 07, 2000 02:43pm | #19

    *George Lentulo,

    I think that the evaporative time of alcohol is key, but also that it is a drying agent. Whenever I used water I needed to add to much and it made the paint very watery unlike adding water to paint when applying it with a brush. On the rare occasion I did get a good mix it took sometime before the paint would dry.The key that I've found as not to diminish the sheen is to mix the paint and alcohol well and not to reuse what is left in the pot or cup. I don't use more then 15% alcohol per volume of paint. In the past I've found that adding to much alcohol will diminish the sheen.One great bonus to this is that the paint sands great when dried unlike regular latex.

    View Image © 1999-2000

16. 
    G.LaLonde | Dec 07, 2000 03:22pm | #20

    *Joe, Thanks for the tip! I'm going to try that. Just about the time you think you've heard everything........Goes to show that a little experimenting goes a long way. I understand why you don't want to spray latex with your $1300 gun. Personally, I don't like spraying latex on anything but walls if I can help it, but good oil based paints are soon becoming a thing of the past.

17. 
    George_Lentulo | Dec 08, 2000 01:38am | #21

    *Thanks, Joe FuscoSeems that one of the keys is the Geo.

18. 
    Ray_Speer | Dec 11, 2000 04:15am | #22

    *As for the first question, it all depends on if you are using it for trim work or the walls of the house. I use an airless on big jobs, interior or exterior, I will even use it on lacquer cabinets but I have a separate pump for that. I will use HELP on smaller jobs like doors or a small cabinets. It is hard to keep the orange peel to a down when spraying with latex. I will have to try using alcohol and see how that works.Ray

19. 
    The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Jan 11, 2001 07:07pm | #23

    *As Joe, the word around here is go four stage for HVLP..And keep the filters clean so the motor doesn't burn up.My production painter has burned out two HVLPs and is now using a compressor style rig....he also is amazing at shooting Ben Moore on trim so smooth that it looks automotive perfect. Ten men on the crew, but only the boss can shoot the trim.near the stream,ajjoe...I may have to try the alcohol trick...thanks

2. 
   Jim_Walters | Jan 11, 2001 07:07pm | #24

   *
   I'm thinking of trading in my brush for a spray outfit. I have two compressors but I think they're both too small (3/4 and 1 1/2 horse) Right?
   Thought about one of those airless types that will spray water borne varnish. Any thoughts?