For my (hopefully) soon to be constructed shop and house, I am planning on running prallel main 200 amp panels from a single 400 amp (actually I think they are rated at 320, but called 400) meter base. The main panels will be in a pump house which is near the current power line run onto my place (the power line is grandfathered in and if I move it, I have to go underground). The pump house is about 100 feet from the shop and also 100 feet from the house (in more or less opposite directions). I plan on putting rather small main panels, probably 6 lug, in the pump house.
I have always been partial to the Square D QO line of panels and meter bases, but I searched the Square D on-line catalogue and could not find any 400 amp meter dual feed meter bases or any 200 amp, 6 lug main panels. Siemens, however, has both and they are available at my favorite home center (the independent 2 store chain, Jerry’s, in Eugene, OR) On the larger 200 sub panels for the shop and house, Siemens is slightly less expensive, but not enough to make any real difference. The Siemens’ main bus is copper where the Square D say its are tin plated copper.
Posters on Breaktime have generally praised Square D QO but I don’t recall anything on Siemens. Is there any particular quality difference between the two. Should I do all Siemens to keep things uniform or is there enough difference that I should go with Square D for everything but the meter base and two 6 lug main panels?
(Home Depot has the 400 amp dual feed meter base but it is some brand that I have never heard of.)
Replies
Seimens is fine. It might generate an argument, but, IMO, the residential service equipment offered by Seimens and Square D are about a wash.
I have nearly the identical setup you are planning (Got mine at Jerry's, too!) and have had zero problems in about 16 years.
I've installed a number of residential services over the years....usually Seimens because that's what's most available.
I just wish someone would come up with a better design than the stab insert.
I'd like to be able to clip or clamp something over the breaker, or screw it down or something.
And that is totally besides the loose insides to those breakers. I hate the buzzing noise I hear whenever I am near the breakers, and the electric heat starts up. And the rattle when you tap on one.
Can't they come up with something that is good and solid on the inside, and that can be locked in good and solid when inserted into the box ?
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
They could come up with "better" products, but would you pay for it? Would anyone else?
They have bolt down brreakers. You see them in commercial applications a lot. Most of the big companies make them.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
In industrial applications the panels and devices a built to handle vibration among other things.
Square D, Cutler Hammer, et al, make panels like Luka wants but they're pretty spendy.
That's pretty much what I just said.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Will you two quit holding hands, and one of you give me some links to what you are talking about ?
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
Google broke? :)
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Edited 6/10/2006 11:15 am ET by Gunner
Google works best when you have some sort of clue as to what you are looking for.Long explanations like... "breakers that actually lock into a breaker box"... Don't usually yield very good results. So I hadn't even tried.;o)Just now tried, and got zero results. They said to remove quotes. I don't want a kazillion results containing any of the words above, in any sequence...
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
Bolt in breakers sorry. Square D bolt in breakers. Siemens bolt in breakers.
Your right I didn't clarify.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
General Ellectric and Cutler Hammer also make the bolt in breakers and panel boxees.
Dave
Yup. I was just trying to give him an idea of some of them.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
I was being lazy.I could've figured out some way to narrow the search myself. Bolt in breakers is just one way I could have.Thanks Gunner.
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
Just trying to make me your google b!tch?
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Dam strate !!There was some interesting reading there.Seems the very thing I hate about the breakers you get at the big boxes, has caused fires.They are not tight enough. Sometimes, due to the loose connection, they burn up.Cutler Hammer seems to be the hands on favorite by the most people I read on a few forums.
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
I'm a Square D guy, but they are all about the same.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
GE A-Series panelboards are what we use. bolt-on breakers are used on these. a little pricey, but you get what you pay for.
Hope this helps. Rich.
" two 6 lug main panels?"
What is that? Do you mean 6 slots?
"(Home Depot has the 400 amp dual feed meter base but it is some brand that I have never heard of.)"
What brand is it? I checked online and locally HD does not show any 400 amp meter sockets.
I guess "6 spaces" is probably the more accepted term, but I tend to call the metal tab that the breaker clips to a lug. I don't remember if the Siemens is actually a 6/12 spaces or only 6 or something in between.
The 400 amp meter socket with parallel outfeed at the local Home Depot is an Adamax, Inc. Price is $149. Did a Google search on "Adamax meter" and the first page didn't give me anything that looked like a hit.
I think of a lug that is something that you can directly connect a wire to.Anyway while I did see a few 6's I think that 8's are more common for small panels.I also could not find anything on that meter base.Though maybe it might have been by someone like Milbank or Landis & Gyr. They are well known, but don't make load centers so they are know to consumers.
Sq D QO panels list for around $800 with a 200A main, 5 QO 115 breakers and 30 spaces for 40 circuits.........
QO breakers that have a 10,000 AIR list for >$18, you can double this $$$ for a 22,000 AIR.....edit: check with your Utility for the Rating
panels W / O main breakers go for >$500.....
I don't know what SEIMENS cost , but they must be cheaper, as I see more of the stuff when a MFR. is not specified....!.
.
.
.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
?
Edited 6/10/2006 10:26 am by maddog3
and a Sq D 320A meter base will take a further $500 (list)
outta yur wallet.
.
.
.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
?
Sq D list prices are meaningless.They are 4 to 5 times acutal selling price.It sounds like you are talking about the QOVP1 Value Pack. 200 Amp, 30 Spaces, 40 Circuit, QOVP1 Main Breaker Value Pack,Square D
Model 33450
SKU 179049
QO¯ Value Pack. Consists of: (1) QO13040M200C-200 amp main breaker load center. Single phase, indoor, NEMA Type 1 enclosure. QOM2200VH main breaker. 30 spaces using QO¯ breakers or 40 circuits using QO¯ Tandem breakers. Overhead/Underground feed. 2.5 inch maximum knock-out in the top and bottom endwalls. Copper bus. 120/240 Vac. 22,000 maximum short circuit current rating. Factory included combination cover.) (5) QO120-(20 amp, single pole breaker.)
* QO13040M200C; 200 amp, Indoor NEMA TYPE 1 Enclosure, single phase main breaker load center
* Includes a QOM2200VH main breaker type
* Overhead/Underground Feed
* Also includes a combination cover and 5-QO120 20 Amp Single pole breakersPrice: $159.00 http://tinyurl.com/lvygp
why would anybody need 400 amps.
MACHISMO!
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
You will have to ask Casey.But it is not hard to get above 200 amps if you have electric stove, dryer, and electric heat (either resistive or heat pump with resistive). Throw in anyone of a hot tub, tankless electric water heater, and/or large welder and you are well over it.
Because you can't get 300 amp service.
Why 400 Amps?
For me, it's a rural thing....200 for residence and the other 200 for shop, barn, woodshed, guest cottage, well pump, irrigation pump. I'm on 60 acres and some of this stuff is spread out.
Why would I need 400 amps. Well, I am planning on a 1200 sq ft welding shop with several welders and plasma cutters, and also a smaller woodshop. There is no natural gas out to my 5 acres and, living about 8 miles from The Dalles Dam and less than 30 miles from the Bonneville Dam, we have among the lowest electricty prices in the U.S. (at least for now, the Easterners in Congress keep trying to change that). Thus most people in the area use electric water heaters, stoves, and most places I have lived in have had all electric heat. I am planning on a heat pump with electric backup.
>>I am planning on a 1200 sq ft welding shop with several welders and plasma cutters, and also a smaller woodshop
You may want to consider 3-phase. I would at least have 2 service entrances.
My electric service is from a "People's Utility District". Rates are reasonable but there is a extra fixed monthly charge for three phase - somewhere around $25 to $30 per month. Plus there is an upfront charge of several thousand dollars for the extra wire and the additional transformers. And in response to the previous post. I have checked with the engineers at the power company and they don't seem to care. I will check with them again once I have everything completely mapped out.
Our DWP won't sell three phase to residential customers, even if it's right there on the pole. A friend of mine shared a back lot line with a commercial zone, and couldn't get it.
Somebody recently posted a link here to a big writeup on how to make a three phase converter out of a three phase idler motor and some capacitors:
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html
-- J.S.
bb,
I haven't built a house in the last 3 yrs that had under. Well technically speaking they have a 325 amp service entrance with (2) 200amp 40 space QO panels. They fill up quickly. Steam generators, Central Vacs, the new codes for bedrooms and baths, duel ovens in the kitchens along with all the other "in vogue" kithchen goodies, AC with 2 of 3 zones, heat pumps, Hot tubs, duel water heaters, outdoor cooking areas and other outdoor stuff: I couldn't afford the electric bill on these houses let alone the mortgage.
k
You think 400 amps is alot? I know someone with a 600 amp service at their house. 7000 sq. ft. house in Phoenix. 600A meter base feeds 3 200A panels; one panel is just for the AC units.
Even at my much more humble rural abode; I have two 200A services. One for the house, one for the outbuldings. It would actually be cheaper per month to put it all on one 400A service.
Although I do not know the owners, I have worked on several large homes with 800A electrical service. How much stuff is enough?
Even a modest McMansion with a 200A service and a 5 ton AC unit will be near max capacity for a few instants during cooling season when that AC starts up and the lights are on.
I chose Siemens because of the solid copper buss. I actually had bought the Square D and taken it home to install and when I looked inside there was an aluminum buss! I am sure that aluminum works fine but from what I read in the Taunton electricity books the authors were stressing copper wherever possible, especially in the busses. And as far as I know, Siemens uses copper busses all the time. I also followed the book's guidelines and used all same manufacturer breakers. My vote goes to Siemens.
Handyman, painter, wood floor refinisher, property maintenance in Tulsa, OK
The QO line of Square D says it has a tin plated copper bus. I have not checked what the cheaper, "Homeline" of Square D uses as a bus.
just for grins and giggles,try ebay. sometimes there is some pretty nice hi amp equipment for sale.i think guys try to liquidate after they finish a commercial project for a little beer money...... larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Check with your utility first. The DWP here in LA has a short list of 400 Amp stuff they'll accept. For an overhead drop, there's only one, a Milbank. Gotta make both the POCO and the AHJ happy, or no electrons for you.
-- J.S.