Starting on the inside of the beach house next week. I will be removing the existing T&G floor, installing 3/4″ subfloor on existing joists, 24″ on center. I want to screw the subfloor down and wonder if I should go with SS screws. The house is on a continous foundation over a dirt crawl space. Joists are 120 yo, no ACQ issues. I just don’t want the screws to fail due to moisture. The T&G is nailed down, nails are rusted but they lasted 120 years, when house was virtually on the ground and water got under it when it rained, no longer an issue since I lifted it 3 1/2 feet.
Thanks
Doc
Replies
Yeah, I think it's overkill, but heck, a five pound box is only about $40.
yeah, I just went to Manasquan fasteners, figured I need 540, so 600 is $42, why not do it? With the price of everything going up, weird that SS is coming down. That's for #8, 2" long, every 6". Given I'm going with 3/4" subfloor, you think the length is enough?
Edited 5/20/2008 8:25 pm ET by dockelly
Overkill, yes.
Besides that I find SS too soft and w/out predrilling, you "may" have head stripping issues or twisted off screws.
Just my.02Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I was gonna say the same as Sphere- SS is too soft, and most likely will snap off as you drive them home. Use some good PL construction adhesive, and deck screws, and you'll be good for another 100 years or so. <G>
2" long screws are plenty for 3/4" decking. The rule of thumb I go by is the length of the screw is about 1-1/2 times the thickness of the material you're screwing down.
If you don't have one already, a decking screw gun is handy. I have an older DeWalt, that runs at 2500 rpm. Its got plenty of torque to set screws in harder lumber.
Thanks Shep, I'm thinking I might have time for golf soon, my forgotten life, I'll be in touch.
Hey Shep,I plan on ripping the floor out this week and laying the subfloor. I have alot of 3" framing SS nails left for the gun, could I use these instead of screws? They are glue coated and a real B***h to get out once they are in.
those with the PL and it won't be going anywhere's....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You guys really think highly of the PL, I know it's tough to get off your hands:)
1. don't get it on yur hands....
2. paint thinner when it 's fresh..
3. don't worry about it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"weird that SS is coming down."Not for long
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You mean that eventually it won't be weird?
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I think youll snap or strip a lot of them of espically going into the old joists- much stronger wood- Why not just use deck screws if worried about corrision - stainless screws can be a pain
That's a good idea, deck screws.
use a better deck screw and buy yurself a load of good beer with the money ya saved...
yup... overkill....
I trust you will be gluing the subfloor to the joist....
A plated ring shank nail will work too in this and the next life time...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
PL adhesive , deck screws, good beer. Got it.
yup...
be prepared for those who will disagree with the OOM.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
screw AND glue, right?
SS not necessary, but can't hurt, esp if this is in a coastal flood plain.
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I'm surprised Frenchy hasn't jumped in to suggest lag bolts.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
the non-plated nails were goo for a 100 plus years...
so glue and nail it with plated nails....
get double the beer out of it with more time left over to drink it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this.
You are installing 3/4" subfloor directly to joists that are 24" OC? Won't that make for a really bouncy floor?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
The floor that's there now is 3/4" T & G without any subfloor, nailed directly to the joists, no bounce. Joists are true 2" width, and I put a tripled 2x12 beam down the center of 16 ft wide room, supported by 10x10 inch concrete pillars.
I don't know why I thought of this today, but I was wondering if you're going to use T&G ply for the sub floor. With a 24" span between joists, you should.
We gotta get out sometime this year. My customer in Colts Neck has been keeping me going, between that house, and the one he has on LBI. But I'm starting to see light at the end of the tunnel, which is good 'cause I'm getting tired of driving 2 hours a day, plus the gas costs.
You see where they recently found more ordinance on the beach by you?
My brother was telling me about the WWII stuff found, says it got washed up or uncovered due to recent noreaster.
I planned on T&G subfloor, but I don't understand why the 24" on center makes a difference. Does the T&G make it stiffer, and therefore less bounce?
The big difference is where the sheets butt together ( can we still say "butt" here?)
With square edge ply, you'll get deflection at the joints, especially with 24" oc.
With the T&G, the ply is a lot stiffer across the whole floor, particularly at the joints.
What are you planning for a finished floor?
3/4" T&G prefinished white oak, bought it at HD 18 months ago, sitting in my garage since then. I'll do the subfloor, let the drywall guy do his thing, and than do the finished floor. Probably let it sit a week in the room prior to install.
3/4" white oak over 3/4" ply should be plenty stiff. Are you planning on installing the oak strip perpendicular to the joists. You get the maximum stiffness to the floor that way.
But if its been sitting in the garage for 1-1/2 years, I'd let it acclimate for more than 1 week.
I've got a moisture meter, if you want to check the flooring before you install it.
floor will be perpendicular to joists. If you think moisture might be a problem, I'll let it acclimate longer. Boxes are wrapped in plastic from factory, I only opened one box to see how well the pieces fit together, it was made in China and I was checking quality. They fit fine, BTW.
Hey Shep,My finished floor will be sitting in the house one week this Saturday. I plan on installing it either next Saturday or sometime thereafter. So it will have acclimated 2 weeks minimum. Do you think that is enough?Have you played Colts Neck golf club? Pricey this time of year, but a decent track if you get the chance.KevinPS I decided to hold off on the copper roof Grant was going to do. Maybe next year. He was saying I should come to the fest with you and Rez, but I take 10 days, 13th to 23rd, at the beach, so it won't happen this year. The two things fall to close together. You guys have a blast.
Kevin-
what you have planned for the floor sounds good. I'd use some kind of construction adhesive , along with the nails. PL Premium is the best, but any adhesive is better than nothing.
The big thing with hardwood floors is making sure that the moisture content is right, somewhere around 8% for both the sub-floor and strip floor, if I remember right. The best way to check is with a moisture meter. I've got one if you want to borrow it. I'm working in Scotch Plains right now, but if you want it, we'll work something out.
I thought you were gonna have this floor in a month or so ago. What are ya doing, playing too much golf? <G>
Hey Shep,subfloor is done, T&G 23/32" rated for 24" joist span, PL glued with 3 1/4" SS nails, used them because I had them. Waiting for the floor to acclimate so I'm doing other things. Wish it were golf, some US Open huh?
Edited 6/18/2008 8:27 pm ET by dockelly
Great Open, especially considering Tiger wasn't only playing with a bad knee, but also with 2 fractures in his leg.
But I was rooting for Rocco. 45 YO guy, 150-something in the rankings, talking and joking as he played. I had to hope he'd win. He did give Tiger a run.
I forgot to answer the other day- yeah, I've played Colts Neck. Nice course for the most part. I don't like the one par 4 with all the trees protecting the green. I mean, come on! I have a hard enough time hitting greens without trees to block my shot LOL
I was hopeing Rocco would win, our generation, nice guy, among the reasons. Know the par 4 your talking about, you almost have to do a bump and run shot to avoid the branches.
Regarding subfloor - if you are talking about OSB products, the cheaper ones are softer and won't hold the nails for your strip finished floor as well. Also the cheaper products are much less durable when being exposed to the elements during the construction process. I'm always looking for ways to control building costs but buying cheap subfloor isn't one of them....
Edited 6/19/2008 9:12 pm ET by Matt
subfloor's been in about a week, 23/32" plywood rated for 24" joist span. Nailed with SS 3 1/4" from a gun, glued with PL.
consider a 1' T&G subfloor...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
3/4 plus 1/4? never saw 1" sheets.
acclimate 3 weeks or more withe flooring outta the box...
1" Adventeck....
or ...
1-1/8"
or....
1-1/4"....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
been trying to find a website for advantek, do you know who makes it? Also, would you recommend rosin paper or felt on top of subfloor and under finish floor? What about plastic vapor barrier on joists before subfloor install?Thanks
KevinPS did I ever tell you we share a birthdate?
Edited 5/21/2008 9:04 pm ET by dockelly
Huber makes it. I say 3/4 is plenty, it's a cottage , not an airstrip.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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You are right. He's using hardwood, not 12" marble tiles.
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no to the plastic...
I prefer felt...
have yet to find disignagrated felt as where I have found rosin that has turned to dust after only a few years...
guess it would help if we spelled adventek adventech....
http://www.lpcorp.com/subflooring/subflooring.aspx
http://www.toolbase.org/Technology-Inventory/Interior-Partitions-Ceilings/new-generation-osb
http://huberwood.com/main.aspx?pagename=advantechflooring
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
30 lb felt, butt the edges or overlap, does it matter?
double 15 with overlaid seams...
single 30...
single 15...
make this yur choice...
I've always done the double 15....
but what ever you use put it perpendicular to lay of the lay of the finished floor....
and butt the seams...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 5/21/2008 9:36 pm by IMERC
will do, probably the 30 since I have it already, thanks.
Nor Me neither, but there is a lot of 1-1/8" out there
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Bounce comes in the joists if they are overspanned or undersized.But with the subfloor at 24"OC, you can get slight DEFLECTION rather than BOUNCE, in between the joists. Only something to worry about if you are going to tile it.
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overspanned or undersized
I don't think they are either. 16 ft joists supported midway by tripled 2 x12, true 2x5-6 inches.
I don't think so either.
I was just trying to offer up a definition - the guys suspecting bounce were using the wrong word. You don't have bounce, but could have some deflection in the plywood itself
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so, as you say, not really a problem unless I plan to tile it, which I don't.Thanks
What sorta wood are the joists? Did you mention that and I missed it?
Round here, a lot of old houses have true dimensional joists like yours, cut from native hardwoods - walnut, oak, etc.. A while back I was in a crawl/cellar on a house built in 1850 - about as old as houses get in Nebraska. Joists were 2x8, looked like white or maybe red oak. Solid as a rock. Them summitches ain't deflecting for nothing short of a tornado or a semi truck.
Jason
I don't know what type of wood, but there in good shape.
a follow up to this post: The Lowes by me had a cheaper price for the subfloor than the Lowes by the beach house. The manager called my local Lowes and we learned that they carry different subfloor. The one that was more expensive was also rated for 24" joist spacing, so I went with that. My local Lowes subfloor was rated for 16"OC. Floor is solid, and I've still got to install the finished 3/4" hardwood floor. Probably be even stiffer.
I'm wondering if its underkill. Alot of times while tightening a SS fastener, I end up breaking them. They seem more brittle than other screws.
If it's wet enough to rust steel screws, wouldn't it also be wet enough to rot the wood? Given that it's lasted 120 years, it's probably not that wet. SS is nice for exposed work, where you don't want the dark rust stains to show or bleed thru the paint.
-- J.S.
Wood is fine, I beleieve the moisture problems have been fixed with lifting house, adding fill, etc.
"If it's wet enough to rust steel screws, wouldn't it also be wet enough to rot the wood? "All we use here close to the water is hot dipped galvies for framing
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Use yellow zinc coated screws, and put the savings into gas.
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are trhey readily available, in other words does HD or Lowes sell them?