O.K. I did tile for many years before carpentry , so I am picky about levels. I used to use heavy duty, I-Beam Johnsons, but they are clunky for many carpentry tasks. All I heard about was $tabila so over time I bought a few. A few months ago after building a interior wall the boss noticed it was out of plumb. I swore I had been careful, and after a bit of noodling , just for the heck of it turned the level over and bam- there was my plumb reading. No one could believe it was out of adjustment. I e-mailed Stabila and they said to send it back. Short story- it was stolen before I could do so (I guess I could drive around until I saw an out of plumb house?).
Jump to this week when we are filling in by installing a kitchen for an old customer. The laser is tied up so we decide to get our reference lines with my Stabila Plate level, since expanded it will reach across the whole room.At some point I notice that we have an error that we cannot explain. On a hunch I switch the level end for end and get a different reading.Now I am pissed. Maybe it is because it is open? so I take it into another room, close it down to 6 feet, and shim it up with shingles until it reads level. I draw an outline of the ends and flip it end for end. Its out !!!!! At lunch I proceed to check every level we have on the job and find two more 4 foot $tabilas that are also out.WTF! IS anybody else having this problem or did all my personal $tabila levels get made on Friday?
Replies
My 4 ft is dead on. I can't believe that you don't routinely swap ends when you're leveling something. I usually do it the first time or two each day, as much out of curiosity as just checking...as you've discovered, that cheap quick check can be costly if not done.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Agreed. I've had a 4' aluminum wrapped wood, that I can longer see the manufacture name, for 20 years. Got it, as a gift, from the owners of the new Ace Hardware distribution center we put pallet rack and shelving in for, in Frederick, MD. It remains dead on, however.
It's been dropped, hit , thrown in the truck, left in the rain, etc. But as I was taught always reverse on the 1st use everyday and periodically during the day, both ways- plumb & level.
This week, it was left in the rain. Next morning, out of level but plumb, by afternoon, dried out and true both ways.
hmmmm??????
my 4 ft'ers been dead nuts on since I unwrapped it about 6 yrs ago...
and the door hangers set.....78" and 32"..I think.....are still just about perfect..after 2 yrs or so.
That 4' has been knocked and dropped more times than I'd like to remember...
as a matter a fact..I just noticed yesterday I've worn off one of the little red bumpers....
Gotta figure out where to buy new end caps.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
My pouch level is the 10" with the protractor dial. It's dead on. It, my eyes and a straight board are my long levels.
Lance
I called Stabila, got a return authorization number and sent in two 6' levels for exchange. One had an enlarged bubble and the other was not reading correctly. I paid the UPS to get them there and Stabila paid to send 2 new ones back. I have another 6' that needs to be exchanged so I saved their box for that. They seem to stand behind their product, no receipts required, just send in the level.
I do have an issue with the way the vials read. I find it difficult to read the vial except in ideal lighting conditions. If the level is in a doorway or window and it is bright outside, I find it difficult to see the edges of the bubble. Sometimes I put my hand behind the vial or a piece of white paper to make a better background.
Then you got a bum one
My three Stabilla's been dead on and I'd never buy a different level. I see YELLOW levels at HD...........Wonder why....contact them brother..
Be on the level
NAmaste
Andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Buy a levelution.
http://levelution.com/
but their tape measure is a gimmick!
Don't judge a book by it's cover....but I still get a little suspicious when I see something being heralded as "approved by the handyman club of america". A club? Sounds like Cub Scouts. Do they have a secret handshake?
Do it right, or do it twice.
Judge it by buying one and using it. I gave away 6 Stabila's after I bought the Levelution.
I also like my "Smart Levels" too.View Image
I would switch in a heartbeat if there was a decent supplier here. But their tape still sucks.
For Sale: 1 nearly new Leveloution tape measure. Priced at what it is worth... $7.00 including shipping to the lower US.
WHW,
I know nothing of their tapes. . . and I'm happy with a Stanley or Lufkin.
View Image
Edited 6/7/2003 1:46:24 PM ET by Joe Fusco
I needed one in a hurry and this was all the lumberyard stocked. PITA!
WHW,
I didn't even know that they sold a tape until I went to their site to get the link.
How does that tape work anyway? View Image
as a plumber I hate it. used VERY little. sell it to you for 7 bucks including shipping!
LOL. . . No thanks. . . ;-)View Image
i'm a fan also of the smart level... where can i get the tri-angle rails 4 ft? or do the knewer rail retro-fit the older module??? thanks ....b
bear,
I'm not even sure they make them any more. . . .View Image
bear,
I picked up a 4' rail for about $5 or $10 about a year and a half ago from one of our equipment suppliers. They had two of them, if you want, I'll check to see if they still have the other. I know it was still there about 6 months ago.
carpenter in transition
tim- that'd be great thanks for your help...b
Thanks for the link, Joe. I've never seen these before. Very nice. I have a Smartlevel too, but I really only use it for finding slopes. I never found them to be sensitive enough for fine work. Once again, a tool that has its place.
carpenter in transition
Nothing beats plumb lines and water levels. Neither can be wrong! ;^)
Don
not true. can't remember why but water level is not always accurate. I'll see if I can remember the reason.
Water levels are very accurate if used correctly.
There are several issues that need to be understood before using one.
1. Air bubbles are the biggest problem. Raise the bucket as high as you can and siphon water to get a flow. Once all the bubbles are purged, you're good to go.
2. If the hose is kinked, flow will be impeded, which can give an artificial reading.
3. Water in a cylinder has a meniscus. The smaller the diameter of the tube, the greater the effect. Larger tubing can help, but if all users mark from the same point there isn't much of a problem.
4. Water finds it's own level relative to the core of the gravitational pull, whereas a transit, laser, etc. all give you a line that is tangential to the sphere (remember the earth is round). So, if you're building a parking lot for a football stadium, a laser may be a few inches from one end to another, but for out tolerances and distances, this is not a consideration. You have to travel 330' to be out 1/32".
Reasons 1-3 are important, but easily circumvented. Reason 4 is for the most part theoretical.
Jon Blakemore
thanks. you said what I remember being told.
My door hanging Stabila is a little off, too, I learned how to play it. Why don't they make make the bubble exactly the size of the lines? Crick does. I've used a connect 'em up Levelution that was off , also, but it made a dandy long straight edge. Water levels are great, but inconvenient, and depend a lot on who's using them and the way way they mark the miniscus. I use a laser a lot, but, I don't completely trust any of these devices, and constanty check 'em. Especially when anything reads dead nuts...that just can't be right<G> EliphIno!
reason 4 depends on what you're building.
the humber suspension bridge in the uk has aspan of 1410metres and towers that are 155 metres high.
the tops of the towers are about 500mm further apart at the top due to the curve of the earth.
granted I wouldn't want to get up there to check, definately not with a water level
That far tower looks a little out of plumb, must have been a breeze when they used the plumb bob!Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
should have got a laser!!!!
aleks
the same consideration was taken when the verrazano narrows bridge was built .connects brooklyn to staten island i'm not quite sure of the specs . i'll see if i can get them tonite....
Add a bit of dishwashing soap in your water level and the surface tension that creates the miniscus (sp?) wont be so dramatic. It will be very likely it will be hard to distinguish the surface tension at all.
Actually I was being humorous with bringing up the water level and plumb bob. Although very effective, they are not exactly the quickest means of finding level and plumb.
Don
I put anti-freeze in in my water level . eliminates the slowness in cold weather.
All these guys here get all hyped up over level and plumb and square.
Actually a square is neither level nor plumb!!!
Level is a curved line equidistant from the center of the earth's gravity.
And all plumb lines are not parallel to each other but radiate from the center of gravity.
So if you build your house flat and square, all your walls lean in out of plumb and your floors will have a "low" spot in the center.
And if you build them plumb and level, your walls will be out of parallel and you floors will all be convex.
This is one reason engineers should not build houses!!!
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
hhhhmmm ... great point ...taken although the plumb bob is the closest ,the lowest of tech( k.i.s.s. principle), that i judge my work from so far things work out. the fact remain's T that there are to many variables that come with perfection in our business(shrinkage ,settling ,expansion,contraction, to name a few and the biggie "lack of pride in your work"). and keeping those variable's impact on your end product to a minimum. you'll be ahead of the game.
engineers job in my eyes are to formulate- we are the vehicle of that formulation- but more often than not we also become the vehicle of formulation,application, manager ,marriage counsler etc,etc......
and anyhow building big f$&#in' bridges,dams, canals are heroic feats. that are neat to look at. and to be respected, in my opinion no diffrent than a fine mantel ,pergola ,house. just more numbers,andmoney and time... whatta you think???...slainte
' bear
Edited 6/8/2003 8:18:56 PM ET by the bear
Can't remember the terminoligy.
The water will climb up the walls of the tube forming a cup. The tube wall texture and water viscosity says how much the water will climb. The rim of the "cup" is read instead of the actual water level. The size [diameter, lenght] of the tube has inflluence on this too. Don't remember which way that goes either. The total volume of water and atmospheric conditions are influences to be considered also. Old water that has "someting" growing in it changes stuff even more. That's why bleach is added to the water along with the food coloring.
Science class 101 a long, very long time ago.
Use the water level on basic CC forming and elevations, then put it away after that.
Use brass plumb bobs. Steel bobs are magneticaly influenced especially with steel framing and jambs.
Coreolus effect .... ;-)Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
just hadto check them all , there all dead on including the levelution(guess which one). checked them w/ a plumb bob and the water level....whew you had me goin' there keep it P.L.S......i hope???/
What, no torpedo levels? (You need to use irfanview.)Do it right, or do it twice.
LOL... what can i say when i find something i like and depend on i go with it... sometimes to excess . the torpedo is on the job..siding this month with a pergola. i do love that levolution kit .... i've had johnson's ,stanley's ,crick, the stabila was sold to me by a sales guy who brought me out to a parking lot first checking it for plumb and level, he had me throw fifty feet or so in the back parking lot and kick it back to the door walked it back inside checked everything dead nuts... i'm a sucker for a demonstration like this. although i have found variations in them... b
A tip I think I learned from the Tips and Techniques section in FHB a few years back told of a good way to check your level. If your level is 6'6" then sink a pair of drywall screws on a sill or a post that are 6'5" apart. Set the level on the screws and adjust the screws until the bubble is dead on. Turn the level 180 and check to see if the bubble is in the same place. If not, adjust if adjustable.
The Stabilas that I own are all still good after being banged around for about five years now. I don't think they are adjustable but if they are true who cares. I have scads of older levels back 35 years of every other brand and I like the Stabilas the best.
Occasionally a blob of glue or a nick in the metal will throw a level off. Unless you worked the piece with a jointer to make it perfectly straight, then the slightest knot or a crown will increase the uncertainty of the reading on the level.
The stabila vials are very sensitive and the bubble is noticably off in less than .25 degrees. Next to the vial on the Stabila there is small print that specifies the uncertainty of the vial if the bubble is up or down. Up is a little more accurate.
My eyes are not so good either but I think the vial is easy enough to read.
Mike Callahan
North Lake Tahoe
Mike's method is correct, but there's a slightly quicker variation. Lay the level on a reasonable flat surface (kitchen counter), note where the bubble is, swap ends and the bubble should be in the same place. Same thing for the vertical bubble...stand it against a door frame, note the bubble position, turn it around (keeping the same end on the floor, other side now towards the jamb) and check the bubble position. If the bubble is not in the same place, the error is half the difference. So if the bubble is 1/4" off on the second reading, then the level is out by 1/8" over it's length.Do it right, or do it twice.