HELP!
I am getting older (retired from roofs) and we are getting into more cosmetic stuff. It seems every time I get involved in a “stain related” job, there is a reminder I really don’t know what I’m doing- for example, sanding and refinishing an OLD maple floor: We had it sanded like glass, yet there were large light blotches where milk? had been spilled over the years. We ended up “going dark”, which turned out ok, but took the customer (away on vacation) some getting used to.
Another job, a birch shelf unit, the lady wanted it “stained” gray – we later found gray enough that it should have been painted? She wanted it “layed on” with the brush – no wiping. We had fans on it for 3-4 days. Another blood bought experience.
I saw Norm (New Yankee Workshop) do something with stain I didn’t understand. He started out with a coat of something, then came back the next day with a different coat (darker) and it was even and deep and looked great.
I don’t need to know “all about stain”, but could you guys coach me or steer me enough to keep me in less trouble?
Replies
You need to get a couple of books, those by Jeff Jewitt, Bob Flexnor (sp?), and Dresdner.
One common practice when staining woods that don't take a uniform stain or might have some contaimation is to use a seal coat of shelac.
"I saw Norm (New Yankee Workshop) do something with stain I didn't understand. He started out with a coat of something, then came back the next day with a different coat (darker) and it was even and deep and looked great."
That could have been an anline dye followed by "split coat" (seal coat) and then gell stain.
I'm a novice. My wife is a profesional finisher and every time she gets into trouble is because she didn't seal first. Different grain patterns absorb stain at different rates therefore some woods like maple tend to blotch if not sealed others like oak tend to be ok without sealing. At her level sealing and toning everytime seem to be best for a consistant finish. But then again I still get panic calls from her once in a while. If we could only all take our own advice everytime. Its like nailing redwood treads - a hundred nails without a split but then comes the 101st
I'm in agreement on the sealing/toning/conditioning. I have had quite a bit of cabinetry and furniture finished by a pro spray shop. When staining, they always started with a coat of a toner. It's colorless, and seals the wood so that the stain (the next coat) doesn't absorb into the wood so much as it sits on/in the toner coat.
The whole thing is a matter of testing, trial and error, practice, etc. Good wood finishing is not something that comes out of a can from Ace Hardware. I always brought in several scraps of the solid wood and plywood or veneer that went into a project, and let them work on those first. Since they did it all day long they usually did a great job. Myself I wouldn't even try.
Talk to the makers of the finishes you want to use. They will tell you where to start with toning.
Just to make sure terminology is correct a first coat of thinned finish to prevent uneven stain absorbtion is a sealer(or sometimes called a conditioner). A toner is usually a sprayed on coat of tinted finish used to tweak the previous color layer(s)
One thing that I have been especially slow realizing is that stains CAN just sit on top of the wood (or I guess what you are telling me - a sealer) - is this right? I used to think that in order for a stain to "lock on" to the wood it had to "soak in" and all excess be wiped off. What you described seems like what I (???) saw Norm do to the table top. The stain can bond to the shellac or sealer, huh? Do you guys have the exact titles to these books? (one title was mentioned) Is there one that sums up the fundamentals?
This "staining and coloration" deal is a HUGE subject with tons of products and techniques that can be used successfully. …….and tons of ways to get into trouble, as well. "One thing that I have been especially slow realizing is that stains CAN just sit
on top of the wood (or I guess what you are telling me - a sealer) - is this right?
I used to think that in order for a stain to "lock on" to the wood it had to "soak
in" and all excess be wiped off.""The stain can bond to the shellac or sealer, huh?"Some stain products can be use as described and some cannot. It depends upon the formulation. Some of the commonly available off-the-shelf products simply won't lay down evenly and stay put while they dry if applied in excess, but will instead puddle rendering a ugly nightmare for you to remove and try again. Some will produce acceptable results depending upon the eye of the beholder. Some of those that worked "okay" three years ago, won't today because they've been reformulated to meet VOC requirements or for numerous other reasons. Your best bet in these regards is to buy products intended for the purpose. Mohawk Finishing offers a couple of products in this category. The base concentrates can be used to make up stains (with their proprietary reducer)…..and toners…… and shading lacquers………. and glazes. For instance, make up and use your stain first, then follow with a toner if desired or necessary…(or a glaze)………all from the same color product. Or…….clear seal the wood first and then start the coloration.Or….use a clear coat between various layers of color/toning/glazing.Their universal colorants can be used in conjunction with different carriers and finishes, but aren't really intended to make up stain products. http://www.mohawkfinishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=182http://www.mohawkfinishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=183Here's a notion of some various techniques that can be used to achieve different results. Make sure to see page two also.http://www.furniturefinishwizard.com/sprayglaze.htmThere's nearly no real limit to coloration techniques (stains, dyes, chemical mordants and such), but you have to be using the appropriate color products with the accompanying finishes and solvents or trouble will result. (Not all finishes and solvents are compatible.) Consequently, there's no way to cover all the possibilities in a forum posting. Wood coloration and finishing can be a life-long career, in and of itself…….and you'll never know it all.A good primer is Bob Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing"…..I highly recommend it as a starting point. Many books, many products, many techniques……just one life. ;-)Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.Edited 6/12/2005 1:13 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 6/12/2005 1:34 am ET by GOLDHILLER
These are exactly the kinds of issues that were covered in the finishing courses I have taken. For example, I learned that applying a mordant of iron oxide and acetic acid (a solution of rusty metal in vinegar) to maple, yielded a very sophisticated and subtle grey coloration, while it darkens woods containing tannic acid (like oak) considerably.
In addition to local colleges that offer finishing courses, there are several excellent books available. In addition to the many contemporary finishing books on the market, I highly recomend "Adventures in Wood Finishing" by George Frank; it is loaded with useful information, and is also the story of Mr. Frank's career in woodfinishing during the first half of the 20th century; fun to read and informative.
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
not that it can't be done ...
but you're moving from one line of work into a completely different one.
Just don't think it's the same thing and U should be fine.
Me ... instead of learning new tricks ... I have my painter handle it.
And he's not your run of the mill painter ... which is why we introduce him as ...
the applied coating specalist!
same as I'd call my plumber or electrician ... it's another world I choose not to delve into. Might be a little closer to carpentry ... but it ain't nailing boards together!
Get ready to start learning all over again.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa