Time to stain some new red oak cabinets, and try to match the existing ones. Did a few samples, and the color is close, but the grain is way too pronounced in the new ones. I have never used sanding sealer or similar … with that close off the pores so they don’t stand out?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell’em “Certainly, I can!” Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
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Replies
Ed
Others with more experience than I will respond but until then;
I have always used sanding sealer on oak, several coats if needed, and it usually is. I dont like the open pores of oak. Lightly sand in between coats, takes off the high side and fills the pores.
I'm sure there are better ways to fill, I have used filler stain on antiques and it worked well.
I'm sure there is much better ways to do this now days, just adding my .03 cents worth.
Doug
You can use an aniline dye to get the right base color.
Then you can either stain it, but you use a lot less and a lighter color as you already have the base color.
Or you an put on a seal coat and then use a glaze. The advantage of the glaze is that it is workable leave more on or wipe it off.
I just did this to my oak kitchen cabinets, so... here goes.
you can use a pore filler, I used some stuff a oldtime floor guy gave me called goopon. It is a pore filler that has some color to it. darn near the same color as the oak.
I simply mushed this stuff all over the wood, let it dry (6-8 hours) sanded the extra off, and then stained.
This filled the pores, and allowed the stain the very stightly highlight the pores/grain of the oak. It also provides a flat surface for the sealer to cover.
Adam
Okay ... where does one find goopon?Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
uhhhh I can't find it on the web, let me ask my floor guy.
Maybe I can ship some to you?
Adam
Pardon me - But would you have any grey goopon?Being in the army is like being in the Boy Scouts, except that the Boy Scouts have adult supervision [Blake Clark]
As soon as these cans are all stained nice, IMERC and I both know people who can paint them over
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
All I need is an address....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
ok finally found my can of the stuff, Not that it did any good. There is almost no info on the can,
just that it is produced by the Kwikwood - goop-on company. in Sacramento CA, PO box 188 CA 95801
but I did find this on a yellow page search of the area
Central Valley Goop-On CO 8561 Thys Court Sacramento, CA 95828
916-383-2304
but this stuff works real well
Adam
Ed,
I've had good success on oak wiping on a thin coat of conventional polyurethane, letting it soak into the pores, then cure, then followed later (at least a day) with a light sanding, then stain. What brand, type and color stain are you using? Many are aniline dye/pigment combos. I would personally keep away from "sanding sealers."
Jon
I would personally keep away from "sanding sealers."
Why?
Without seeing what he's trying to match, I was guessing that the stain wasn't wiped on, but sprayed, to give a more uniform color. Tinted sanding sealer works great for that. Very easy to make it a little darker with subsequent coats and to change the tint if it's not going in quite the right direction. Quick dry time makes it a 1 day affair. Top coat with compatible finish.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"I would personally keep away from "sanding sealers."
Why?"
'cause most are none penetrating and very high in solids that tend to mask the beauty of the wood.
Jon
'cause most are none penetrating and very high in solids that tend to mask the beauty of the wood.
Right you are. My commissioned pieces are clear finished, no stains or tints. Only when I have to match up to commercial products do I get out the tints. Certainly doesn't make the wood look better, but it does a great job matching the other crap, which often disguises indiscriminate wood usage.
Nice to hear that somebody else here doesn't think "it's only a board". PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Don't know what colour you're trying to match, but if you can find it in the Minwax colour palette for their transparent stain line, they make a wood conditioner oil that prevents exactly the kind of thing you're complaining about. I find it essential for the white pine I use to build 'country' cabinets; also, I just finished a red-pine floor stained the same way. This oil is wiped on, let set 10 minutes, and any that's not absorbed is wiped off. You then need to stain within two hours.
If your grain is still too open, you can apply a second coat of conditioner prior to staining.
Actually, Goldhiller ought to chime in on this one; it's his speciality. I'm gonna post a bump to him in the next box.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Hey Goldhiller--Staining Call!!
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I bought a quart can of Minwax "Sanding Sealer" and tyried that on a sample ... much better results. But it appears their "sanding sealer" is nothing more than clear urethane ... smells like it ... looks just like it ... cleans up with paint thinner.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Ed, Sanding Sealer isn't the same product I'm talking about. This is called PRE-STAIN WOOD CONDITIONER, and it's an oil, not a urethane of any sort. http://www.minwax.com/products/woodprep/prestain.cfm
The product is recommended for application to soft and/or porous (i.e.: absorbent) woods to promote even stain penetration and avoid blotching. They make two grades; the one I use is formulated to work with Minwax oil-based penetrating stains. (The other is for water-based stains. I don't know anything about that product from personal experience.)
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I saw that stuff on the shelf, and passed it over for what I thought I wanted. I'll get some manana and have a go at it.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
What colour stain are you going to use on those cabs? Golden Oak (210-B)?
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I've never used them, but how about gel stain? Not supposed to absorb so rapidly into the soft wood. Heard of even wiping with mineral spirits first to stop rapid absorption. Haven't tried either of these options, so what the other guys tell you is probably better advice. (Though I have used analine dyes and really like the results.)
Tough calls to make without seeing the situation firsthand or at least some pics with both cabinets being in the same location under the same lighting.
What's your intended final clear coat finish? This would effect what products you could safely use or not use to fill grain or seal off the wood to alter stain or dye absorbtion rates. For instance, your run-of-the-mill sanding sealers shouldn't be used under oil-based poly. And the cans of sanding sealer designated for use with oil-based poly........ amount to nothing more than thinned oil-based poly.
Dyes or stain/dye combos can cause grain to pop more than stain alone. Depends on the species of wood, the preparation of it and your target color as it relates to the base color of the wood.
Do you know the make of the cabinets you're trying to match and and the approx. age of them? Reason I ask is because we used to do alot of work for KDA and that entailed constantly matching colors of various manufacturers. What a PITA........errrrrr, pardon me............opportunity to learn color matching. For years on end those companies refused to send us stains to match or reveal the recipes for those stains and color products/processes. Things have changed. Frequently enough you can get cans of stain from those manufacturers today, if you can tell them what color the cabs are. They have current color charts available for their cabs. (My brother still does alot of custom cab work for KDA.)
If that option isn't viable for you and you eventually get tired of trying, you might consider using the color matching services of Sherwin-Williams or another paint store near you that offers these services. That way the burden of time and money is on them and not you. No extra charge here for custom mixes and they'll work at it till they get it....or decide to give up. If they don't succeed, no charge for the product.
The problem with this approach is that they won't usually try conditioning or sealing products, but rather try to hit it with just a stain alone. Not always successful as you can imagine.
If you're like me though, even if they can't get it............you'll wail away at it until you do, because it's a challenge.
Bear in mind that if you use a grain filler product, you could easily end up with a finish that's more glass smooth than what you're trying to match and that might not please you or the client either. Can't really say from here. But I do know that people can get real fussy sometimes when they have no idea what you're up against and they don't have to do it themselves. <G>
You might be up against a situation that demands the use of a stain followed by a tinting/toning colorant. Or that might be the easiest way to get you where you need to go.
Don't know why you wrote all that...
What ever it is that ya'll do Piff and I are sending over "painters" to handle it and get it done right......
I'm sure the oak trim lady needs something to do..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Hey Ed,
Woodworker's Supply sells finishing such as the analine dyes and and fillers. I think the filler they carry isa called "Pore o Pac". It basically fills the pores so they can't absorb the stain and it also gives a very smooth surface if you're looking for a glass like surface.
You can make sanding sealer by mixing denatured alcohol and shellac. I mix it 50/50 some others dilute it further, it depends how much stain you want to let it absorb. Also, shellac dries quick, like in 1/2 hour so you can make up test boards fairly quickly until your happy with the results.
BTW the Knots forum has a finishing category with people with lots of experience, such as Jon Arno who writes for FWW.
Dan
"I'm sure the oak trim lady needs something to do."
That cinched it. No address will be revealed.
I've heard all about that lady and her antics. Ain't she doin' about ten years hard time for her last little escapade with paint?
No? Well then there's no justice left in this world.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Goldie - The cabs are about 10 YO and this HO is not the original. I have not found any labels that show a brand. They are red oak wood, but the grain is subdued, apparently the pores were filled so that they did not absorb the stain. I did a sample with the Minwax sanding sealer, and it really reduced the grain, but not enough. The finish might be a pecan color, with a nice shine. I wouold bet that the cabs are factory finished.Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Ed,
Any chance of a couple pics of the cabs, including some sorta close-ups?
That would be a big help to everybody trying to provide guidance or insight as to how the originals were colored.
If the grain is really subdued on these, it may well be that the entire surface was clear sealed and then a shading and toning colorant/lacquer was used followed by the final clear coats. Or it may be that this approach would get you the match you need with your particular batch of wood, even if that isn't what was done originally.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I'm not sure what color you are trying to stain, but I would recommend Compliant Spray Systems Enduro products - WB with quick dry time.. Use the sanding sealer to seal the pores of the oak, then use their clear grain filler, sand, and apply another SS coat, sand and stain, then tint the SS with the same stain to get to your final color & spray it on with a light pattern, then use your top coat.
In my experience, if the grain pattern is that different, no amount of sanding sealer will change the grain. If you have a few areas on the new cabinets where the grain is extremely dark or pronounced, you could mask off the surrounding area of the panel and use a lighter color spray toner. I get most of mine through Mohawk, but there are other companies out there. The toner, used LIGHTLY and in thin coats, will lighten the dark grain areas. This also works great if you are staining a project that had a vein of sapwood that will not take stain. Mask off the other areas and use a toner on the sapwood to match the rest.