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My buddy and I are fabricating and installing 18″ X 18″ SS floor tiles in an apartment here in NYC. We are installing over a plywood subfloor with a quick poly coat over it. We’ve milled countersunk holes into the four corners of each tile, 5/8″ in. Unfortunately, the surface texture we are grind/cutting into the face creates some cupping. Anyone have a good SS tile-to-floor glue idea? We are currently leaning I picked up some PL Professional flashing adhesive on the way home on the advice of a friend. Any experience with this or other stuff? Thanks,
Don
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Pad the hollows with dollar bills?
LOL
*could you attach them individually to some kind of backing (plywood?), with t&g on four sides, and install like parquet flooring?that doesn't answer your adhesive question though, but might help with cupping.
*You have some excellent adhesive but the thing that scares me about this is the different expansion rates between steel and wood for heat/cold/humid/dry. cork backing/cushioning???
*Don,Lexel sticks to almost anything. http://www.sashcosealants.com/htmlfiles/lexel.htmlKK
*If you want the floor to end up flat over all then you need to call: 1. the Tile council of America for bonding and expansion joint advice and2. the best marble contractor in town. Don't forget to tell him how much these tiles weigh.It may also be wise to consult the building's CC&Rs for sound transmission limits. A cork or Enkasonic underlayment may be necessary.
*How thick are these tiles? Or should I ask what guage?I assume they are not being grouted. Will they be caulked at the joints?You say the wood is poly'ed? I would sand that off for sure. Better to have the adhesive directly to the wood.BTW, I hope all the outlets are GFCI.
*Good point Ted. Can you imagine spilling your beer in a floor outlet while standing bare foot on this floor. There's proper punishment for spilling beer.I've glued copper countertops to plywood using PL but I worry about expansion. I guess I've never had a problem because they aren't in the sun or by a cold air source. I'd try to do as recommended here and isolate each panel and I think if you glue each one 100% you're good to go.I just have one question, how are you locking the seams together? Terry
*Beer spills? And here I thought it was poor bladder control.
*Wow, we felt bad enough when we thought it was ugly, but deadly??? We'll definitely bring that electrical issue up with the designer and construction firm. We are constantly involved in "Wow, I've never seen that before." projects, and we nearly always find out real quick there is an awfully good reason you've "...never seen it" before.Thank you, everyone for the great responses. HEre are some answers to questions you raised:These tiles are 16 gauge, or around 3/64".There are no grout lines, the panels get flushed up to each other. It is a climate controlled apartment and we are well away from any windows, so we are hoping that helps us out with the expansion problem/s.We are planning to rough up the poly with some scotch brite or the random orbit sander, which we have already used on the back of the panels.Lack of a method of seam locking is what brought up the need for an adhesive. We would just add a center screw between each corner, but we have agreed to fill weld the heads of the SS square drive screws we will be using, which will already be a huge chore, with 225 or so panels. Yeah, that's right....Don
*Don I do the same type projects. For example, I have to line a triangular 25'x 25'x 30' fountain with a copper watertight pan. So I've been up against some of the things you're dealing with.My question is still the same. How are you going to align the seams. There will be gaps and uneven edges without some type of seam lock. Typically all of the edges would be hemmed and interlock. I know it's probably to late but have you considered this? Hem all of the edges 1/2". Turn the hem under and lock them into a C channel fastened to the floor. This would eliminate face fasteners and soften the edges by folding them under.Just an Idea. I've welded stainless and copper and the distortion is a pain. How are you going to keep the heat away from the wood? It sure sounds like a challenge, wish I could help. Please post pictures. I'm really into this stuff, keep me posted with results.Terry
*If only this was friendly, pliable copper...Unfortunately we are weel beyond such a major design change. Also, how does that not leave a center depression where the c-channel at the edges doesn't run?We (read: my buddy Mike) are going to TIG the screw-hole welds, which should keep the heat to a minimum. Yeah, that hellacious SS deflection is another worry. To be honest, we haven't had the guts to make test panel welds yet, if it doesn't work it would be oh, so bad...We are hoping the adhesive takes care of this problem. We have spent about 7 hours now calibrating and recalibrating our shear to get tiles that are as close to perfectly square as possible (within a thin 32nd or a fat 64th). The pattern is a die grinder run on the x and y axis about every 1/4", then both diaganols. This creates a pretty dizzying pattern that makes 32nd" gaps a bit more invisible. Also, the other contractors on this job are first rate and the subfoor is A+, so we've got that working for us...Do you have pic of the fountain? Misery loves company. Also, a shopmate does a lot of copper work, so if there are any questions we could pass along to wiser folk, please feel free...I will definitely keep you informed.Don Wood
*DonHow big are the screw heads? Your point about the C channel depression is valid. I'd probably lay a sacrificial sheet under to make up the difference. There would still be more surface irregularity than doing it your way. I worry though about sharp edges. I'm really fascinated.I don't have a picture of the fountain, or the one in front which I've already completed. It's much smaller 10'x 10' and it was a bear. 1/8" copper tig welded with 14 penetrations for lights and water supplies and features. I built it and installed it only after filling it with water and making repairs. It weighed 1400 lbs and held 1500 gallons of water.Here are some pictures of some other copperwork I've done.
*I did the slate roof and all of the copperwork on this project. Show these to your copper guy. I'd like to talk with him. I'm always looking for input.Terry
*Don, Are you one of those designers on that program where they go in and have neighbors redecorate one room in each others' houses ?
*If the center of the "tile" flexes, the corners will lift, screws or not. What happens when bare foot meets razor edge ss? Cool idea but scary too.
*A few thoughts.....What is PL Professional Flashing adhesive ? I thought I was familiar with the entire PL product line, but this is new to me. Is it a urethane based product ? Sold in 5 gallon containers ?I understand the great concern here over sharp edges, but I think a lot of the trouble could be eliminated by grinding a softer edge all the way around the tiles. I doubt the effect would be too noticeable.As a result of your surface grinding, does the top surface of the tile tend to cup up or down ?The comment about Tig welding square drive screw holes shut is over the edge. After the welding is done you will need to grind the surface of the screw head smooth. How are you going to do this without marring the surface of the tile ? With a Dremel ? Yeah, right. If this decision is based on aesthetics (I'm guessing it is because square drive screws are pretty unsightly) then you need to rethink your choice of screw heads. There are more attractive options. I think I would go with a stainless flat head sheet metal screw with a tamperproof spanner drive. You end up with two tiny round holes that really don't need welding. There are other neat options available as well. You can check them out at the site below. The second URL is a downloadable PDF catalog file showing all of the spanner drive screws available.http://www.tamperproof.com/index.htmlhttp://www.tamperproof.com/pdf/snake_eyes.pdf
*Since we're tossing ideas in the ring for consideration.............How about welding some barbs on the bottom face of the tiles (corners, edges and center for a minimum) similar to the gang-nailing plates for trusses but not that many, and press them down into position with a little adhesive for insurance. This should preserve the face, eliminate the need to fill holes and regrind and take out the slight cupping caused by the grinding process. You might need a little weight while the adhesive sets or use a contact type adhesive and set the tiles carefully because you would be limited in horizontal adjustment because of the barbs.For the sharp edge possibility: Use a micro-bevel such as is used on prefinished wood flooring. Polished edge may help too.
*Believe me, Tim, we are well aware of how over the edge this all is. Boy are we... The screw head change is an idea that we threw into the ring a little while ago and just may try and get approved. The edges are being softened, we are a little more worried about a pinch factor.The surface cups up toward the etching.The PL PRo stuff is a polyurethane adhesive. It is black and comes in a yellow 10.5 oz caulk gun tube that is mostly yellow with black trim.Thanks a million for the link and bravo on the flashing work. DW
*Don ---You avoid the problems by knowing how to do the job before starting.There are a lot of easy ways to do the job. Most of them start out; "throw out what you have done and start by ..."
*George, You are right, of course. But, that's hardly the spirit that put a man on the moon, is it? lolAnyway, I usually find that jobs worth doing, no matter how easy or familiar, are devilishly ingenious at creating just one more wrinkle you hadn't thought of. And if they can't think of one on their own, they hire an architect.
*George,i "You avoid the problems by knowing how to do the job before hand."I know a lot of guys with that attitude, and they all make more money than me. A lot of us enjoy taking on a challenge and not just taking the comfortable road of familiar, repeatative work. There is great satisfaction in knowing that you have taken on a job that most would pass up on, and make it work.John
*Don, The PL adhesive isn't really what you want. You need a product that is a mastic type adhesive that will be applied with a fine notched trowel with notches about 1/16" x 1/16". This way you will get near 100% coverage on the back of each tile. You want to avoid products from caulking tubes that will leave you with "beads" of adhesive. These heavy beads will telegraph right through the thin metal tiles, especially when you concentrate heavy loads on them. Speaking of heavy weight, after each tile is glued, you should use a laminate roller on each tile for proper bedding, and then put a heavy weight on top of the tile on its center, to keep the cup down until the glue sets.
*Thanks Tim,Actually we are, in fact, using a squirt-and-spread method on the samples so far, using exactly the trowel you refer to. We are definitely on the same page, but haven't been able to come up with a mastic-type adhesive that was recommended for anything like SS. We are also tracking down another lead regarding something used for glass brick installation. We're planning on using lead weights and sandbags for just the reasons you mention.I've got a question for you. What do you think the worst case scenario would be as far as the differing rates of expansion, re: the SS and ply subfloor? This is a climate-controlled high rise, we're about 12' from the nearest window.Don
*Don, I worked on a project a few years ago which called for alternating square tiles of slate and aluminum. The aluminum tiles were thin, so to bring them up to the thickness of the slate they were contact-cemented to mdf or masonite squares. Both the slate and the aluminum/mdf tiles were adhered to the subfloor with a mastic. I don't know how it held up as I moved shortly afterwards, but it's one more way to skin the cat....
*Here is a pic of one of the tiles, if it helps anyone. (That's a 12" rule) By the way THANKS again for all the continuing help, suggestions and ideas. We are going in tomorrow to take some lumps for not being able to start laying tiles, but a couple days to compose ourselves and play with some suggestions we've received here should help us get the job finished well ahead of schedule. And that's all they'll remember....right?We'll keep this thread updated or start a new one in this same section when we get started.
*It's a shame that the search function is so unresponsive. There was a thread a while back, a LONG while back, about laminating a metal skin to something.??? I think the main concern was preventing oil canning as well as what adhesive to use.Anyone remember that, or who?Another thought:PLAM is available with various metallic facing. Perhaps there is a similar process that will facilitate bonding the stainless tile dead flat to a substrate that can be readily applied to the existing underlayment with regular mastic adhesive. There are heavy duty, portable laminating machines that could be used to apply tremendous pressure to a tile sandwich. I had one from a sign making company but couldn't figure out what to do with it so it finally went into the trash.
*DonI have a chart in my SMACNA(Sheetmetal) manual that gives expansion figures for building materials. I'll use it and try to summarize for you.coefficient of expansion for Stainless steel is .0000096coefficient of expansion for fir parallel to grain is .0000021The expansion coefficient is in inches per inch per degree FTo try and make sense of this, a ten foot length of stainless steel will increase in length just over 7.3728/64" if increased in temp 100 degrees FA ten foot length of fir parallel to the grain will increase in length just under 1.6128/64" if increased in temp 100 degrees FIf you glue the 18" X 18" SS to the plywood and heat it 100 degrees your SS will grow 1.106/64", your fir plywood will grow .242/64"These numbers are just for temperature induced expansion, and are taken directly from my SMACNA manual. I would be more concerned with humidity induced expansion of the wood, but if it's climate controlled....Who's asleep,b CLASS!!!!!!Terry
*Don , How about grinding the backs similar to the tops ? that way the heat will stretch the metal the same leaving it flat, hopefully. When I blast sheet metal I try to blast both sides in the same direction and at the same angle. Don
*Terry, 7" expansion in 10 ft? You must be off on the decimal point. .7" would sound a little more believable to me.John
*John:I had to read Terry's post a couple of times. If you look closely, it says seven...sixty fourths of an inch (7.../64"). Not sure what the laws of kosher say about mixing decimals with fractions.Jason
*Good eye Jason, I didn't catch that. Definitly not Kosher!
*JohnIt's an easy mistake with this font. I didn't like the way any of my numbers looked but eye's aint smart nough to fix the font.I do like the sense the numbers make though, and it always makes me feel better when I can define the exact parameters I'm dealing with.Good catch John and Jason, I should have left a space on each side of the "/".TerrySomeone teach me how to change the font in here!
*If you change the font, it changes only for you. The default font stays the same for everyone else.
*Thanks for all the continuing help. 1/64" Still seems like a lot, but that stuff does get wacky under heat. I may have a date with a sample, a starrett and my oven. Don, we will be scuffing up the backs to help the PL hold, and you're right, that does help a bit. Waiting on sample approval...
*The client approved the sample! The "snake eyes" security screws passed muster-after some convincing and many sleepless nights-and we began installing the floor this morning. Here are some pics of the install beginning and the screws as they look installed.Thanks everyone and I'll let you know how it goes.Don
*Another pic
*Don Keep this thread going. I want to see the finished product and see what you learn from it. Good luck,Terry
*Thanks Terry,I will definitely try to keep it up to date, just in case anyone else is interested. Here are some things we have learned:-In New York, the politics of the building co-op are more important than the integrity of the design. (this worked in our favor)-Grout line spaces are there for a reason. Even 1/32" spacing around the tiles would have made a huge difference in layout speed. Expansion is something we don't even mention any more, we just hope the 80 degrees or so the painters and plasterers keep the place is as high as it ever goes.-Thin gauge metals probably should be laminated onto a thicker substrate first, as someone suggested above. This was not an option for us, but I would suggest it to others. With tolerances this tight, it would have been nice to be able to lay out tiles on 4x8 sheets of ply at the shop, then just laid out those big "tiles". Of course, that would probably open up another can of worms...-On that topic; Because of the zero tolerance, one tile at a time layout, we need to apply the adhesive to the back of each tile instead of as a field on the subfloor. Perhaps because of this, we are getting a slight cupping at the intersections of our tiles, where they are screwed to the floor. We can ease the screws off, but it is a problem, and one more thing that can keep you from getting into a rhythm.-If you are doing a project with the "Snake Eyes" security screws, buy a bunch of extra driver bits right up front. The driver consists of two prongs, and if one slips out, it comes around and shears itself off againt the head of the screw. It is hard not to go through one a day. Thats all I can think of now. I would be happy to chat with anyone who has more questions or ideas. I am at DonInBrooklyn on AIM and planeticket99 on Yahoo Messenger, though I am not a steady user of either.Here is a pic of where we were at the beginning of the day: (that's my buddy Mike "Moochie" Conlon of Conlon Metals laying the tiles...conlonmetals.com is his new site)
*Don This has been a fascinating experience that I'm sure your client will appreciate. May I have their name(s) ? I recently saw a distressed calf-skin leather tile floor in a dining room that was beyond description and I would love to make a recommendation to them. I'm sure you'll be able to do an amazing install...........!
*Here is a new pic of our progress so far, we are getting close to putting a stake in the heart of this thing...Don
*Here's the view from 180...
*Are they going to have you and the family over for the floor christening ceremony?
*Perfect, Ralph. We've made that same observation, but your dramatic illustration does wonders. Of course we didn't go to school for design; the interior designer was in today and was overheard saying this about the floor and how it will transition to the next room:"...then you leave this 'Garden'-type feeling and head into...""Garden-type feel"?!?oh, boyDon
*DonIt's hard to tell what it really looks like, give us your feeling. What do the people seeing it for the first time say, what expression do they have on their faces? Would you do it again, or are you disappointed at how much work it is and the net results? I know how much you put into it, I hope it's satisfying.I have to ask. How many hours of work per sq ft and how much does it end up costing.Terry