For the kitchen I am doing now, the lady is set on SSC for a large U shaped counter section. The rest of the cabinetry is shaker style and the island has a maple BBtop so this seems out of place to me…. buit I am going to get’er done.
The problem is that I have never worked with this sort of thing before. Any education you all can give me would be appreciated. she wants a clean break at the front edge and not a roll over
I talked with two metal fabricators near here, neither of whom specialize in it, both of whom seem vaguely reluctant, “Yeah, we can do that but…”
They offer three ways of doing it – remember this is a large counter which presents it’s own problems. Nearly 14′ along the center section, 48″ on the left leg, and about seven feet on the right. The sink is to be one of those cast farm sinks that projects in the front at center of the U section.
First way is fromn a steel fabricatopr who works with beams, boats, brackets, etc….even to fine handrails. He said that the owner needs to be fully aware that there will be a couple of weld seams that show. he cab grind and buff, but wants her to be OK with the idea that the seams will still show.
My sheet metal guy is the one who did another counter here on the island that she liked and said to imitate. But that one had no seams in it. He would make them by having me build a substrate counter, to which he affixes the SSC with contact cement. The seams would show as a pencil line in the same way that you see in a fornica-type laminate.
He also offered a thrid optuion that may take some chasing down. That is to go find a commercial SSC fabricator. He has seen similar work done where large3 equipment is used and the end product has seams that are totally invisible once buffed out.
Of course, either method that delivers a complete piece presents a problem that Ihave only begun to consider, that of getting the unit into the room and in place. She wants no backsplash except behind the range, so that helps…
Help me wrap my head around this one guys…
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If it don't fit in the door, it don't...I'd say that was the first order of business
Opposite side of room has a french door 5068 that I think ( from here in my seat) that I can wrangle it through on the diagonal, but then it would still need to rotate into position, requiring plenty of manpower - still no problem, but the space that would take up means I would have to install it before the wall cabs, or island, putting a hitch ion my sceduling...
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Ouch, my eyes are hurting just thinking about it - BB island, SS counter, farmhouse sink - no accunting for taste, is there? As long as the check clears...
Here is one source:
http://www.frigodesign.com/sscounter.html
Thanks, Have you used them? Good experience?
I'm thinking freight would kill me on an all in one peice this big. Maybe have to pick it up myself
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No, I haven't used them - I don't believe in SS countertops :-). They came up in a Google search and looked like a quality outfit. No idea where they are located. Good luck!
header on their site says in NY state.now that I have perused the site some, I recall them from another job. The lady had bought a kit to face the front of her refer door with cab panels. I think the panels and mounting kit were retailed to her by the cab salesman in a big box store. Frigo made the mounting kit. The problem with all that was that there were several options the lady never did buy, like handles to match, and a side panel for thje projecting sides of the refer. The main kit came with an order sheet for alll the other parts she needed, so I marked down the required parts and filled in the oprder for her to go get them from frigo. it came to over two hundred bucks, - this in a house that cost them a quarter million or so - so she got mad at me for giving her the bad news. The whole refer still looks ugly and unfinished to this day.but that is no bad report on Frigo.
Matter of fact, I see they also do copper counter tops too - that appeals to me, and looks like something I could love.
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Pif,Someone has already touched on the "tin-canning".I want to re-emphasize that.If you do nothing else, put a solid sub-strate on.I am talking solid as in concrete or something. You lay this stuff on plywood, or any other kind of wood, and she IS going to end up with tin-canning. Float a 1" thick layer of concrete, or 1/2" durham's rock-hard. (Not just a skim coat of the durham's.) Or use cement board, or something. Maybe lay laminate first, on particleboard. Then lay the steel on top of that.Also take into consideration the shrink and expansion qualities...
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
Yeah, I'd probably use Medex for a base, but I understand that if I go with a commercail type top, they are heavier and made so as to be self supporting, where you would need n axe in full swing to ding it. Scratches being another matter, I need to point that out to her. That frigo site offers a "leather" textrure, which I suppose would be to minimize the iompact of thsoe dings.
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Paul,
I've done one SS counter ever, and it was only 5-6' long with cutouts for Gaganue gas burners.
Other than some slight fit issues, everything went smooth.
The top was fabricated by a commercial restaraunt outfitter. It was self supporting but reguired the insertion of wood front and back to ease the install to the cabinets.
At that gauge I dont think oil canning would be an issue, nor would there be a need to cement it to a substrate or even have a substrate at all unless perhaps it is desired for the purpose of sound deadening. I'm sure there are other means of quieting the metal.
My current client is part owner of a company that manufactures dairy conveyer belts and other systems for the processing of dairy products. They do a lot of SS work. I am in awe of some of the things I have seen in their home that have obviously been fabricated by his co. I have been dying to ask him if they would do such work as you have a need for. They either have; or have acess to laser cutting and welding.
I am not sure if you are in search of a fabricator or just trying to gain usefull knowledge. I also know of a kitchen showroom with a SS counter on display. I could also inquire there if you like.
I would be glad to feild any questions you may have to this gentleman, or perhaps find out if he knows of a reputable fabricator of kitchen tops.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Please do find out what you can for my edification. I will have another discussion with her about htis before proceeding and I want to cover all the bases and have all the options and answers I can first. I'm sure we can all learn.
One thing that jumped out at me is the co-efficient of thermal expansion that I would need to allow for in such a large shaped piece - someone else mentioend this.Many thanks!
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Pif, I've done several copper counter tops and have one coming up soon. I think they look like hell, but are easy to clean and easy on knives for food prep surfaces. With copper, I've basically wrapped a finished counter top ( the copper basically substitutes for laminate.
I've been marginally involved with some stainless tops. They were made by commercial kitchen fabricators and the stainless was thick enough that no substrate was needed and oilcanning was not a consideration. From what I remember, the lengths were close to what you're dealing with and there were no lateral joints. Check with restaurant supply people locally.
edit: Thermal expansion/contraction shouldn't be an issue in a climate controlled space.
Hey Mister Sushi, you forgot to cook my fish.
"Am I dead or alive? What's this? Linoleum? I must be in hell." -The Salton Sea
Edited 5/29/2005 8:45 pm ET by greencu
Just glue it to 1/2" steel plate. Then the only thing that could damage it would be one of those evil 50 cal rifles I just saw on "60 Minutes". Or, do they make SS in 1/2" thickness? (Might be just a tad expensive though!)
I would fabricate as much as possible near or on-site. Stainless steel is terrible in that it shows every nick, ding, whatever, and they're almost impossible to get out. I like the laminate idea because it gives the Stainless something to fall back on - i.e. it will have less of a tendency to oil can and dent.
Nonetheless, I would almost plan on going over the thing with a large buffer to burnish it such that there is a uniform appearance once installed. Naturally, within 3 days of having used the thing the lady of the house will recognize her folly and get something else. Hopefully, she will have paid you by then.
I put stainless countertops in the same category as glass hoods, i.e. some designers fancy that has no place in the real world where people actually use a kitchen. God help you if the homeowner is fussy about the appearance of the stuff, because stainless is almost impossible to clean w/o scratching it.
"I put stainless countertops in the same category as glass hoods, i.e. some designers fancy that has no place in the real world where people actually use a kitchen. God help you if the homeowner is fussy about the appearance of the stuff, because stainless is almost impossible to clean w/o scratching it."
Constantin,
I guess that depends on the kind of finish the end-user expects to achieve and maintain; in restaurant kitchens SS counters are the norm, but no one expects them to look like highly-polished works of art - they're strictly utilitarian and about as bulletproof as you can get for the hard use they see.-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Absolutely right. If the homeowner desires a kitchen that is strictly functional, metal countertops are the way to go. When designed and built properly they are bulletproof, sanitary, etc. Did you also install a floor drain so the place can be hosed down? ;-PAnyway, I personally prefer polished, dark, hard, non-porous surfaces in kitchens that have less of a tendency to scratch and that hide scratches/stains/dirt better. Thus, I prefer granite as a countertop materal over stainless. However, there is no right or wrong, it's just personal preference.For example, my mum has a stainless island section that has been scratched into oblivion by pots and other things leaving their marks. Now it's just part of the look and not that objectionable - it simply yells "Hey, they actually use this kitchen for cooking!".
"Hey, they actually use this kitchen for cooking!"
Constantin,
Wow, what a concept!
I think you've uncovered my bias in favor if activity-based design! Although many who prefer aesthetics over function may disagree, I actually like the idea of designing homes as a collection of spaces in which activities occur, and don't necessarily see aesthetics and functionality as mutually exclusive - when skilfully executed.
What makes no sense to me are trends that represent an imbalance of form and function, whether in the form of impratical beauty, or butt-ugly utilitarianism.
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Hear Hear...I spent an afternoon at a high-end store researching a number of different designs for a client. The salesperson there told me how a local homeowner spent $28k (in 1998) for her showroom kitchen and $500 for the kitchen in the basement that she actually used to cook in. I just shake my head...
another option would be a material from wilsonart, it consists of a metal layer on a regular laminate substrate, they have several colours and finishes and i believe the metal layer is aluminum so it can be worked with regular carpentry tools, ive used it for backsplash areas but never for countertops(yet!!)
caulking is not a piece of trim
Find the commercial stainless steel fabricator - there should be plenty around. That is how commercial kitchens get done. They will know how to roll edges, make pieces to fit, assemble on site, etc. That's what they do.
I agree. I have installed several stainless kitchens including my own. I used a commercial kitchen fabricator to build and install them. They glue down on plywood tops. The welds are done onsite and afterwards the only sign of a seam is a direction in the grain. We use 14 guage stainless. Don't use thinner material. We use welded in sinks, custom made to the clients specification. I use a detail in the rear of the counter where I roll the metal up a half inch and then turn it back to the wall a half inch. This gives a way to kill the backsplash tile without a grout line in the corner so cleanup is easy. I also roll the edge up a little before rolling it down in the front. This keeps water from forming a line across the front of your pants. We call this a marine edge. My fabricator answers each challenge I throw at him with a simple, "It's only metal."
"The welds are done onsite"Thanks Ray. That is a critical piece of info I didn't know if possible.I like the wall meeting detail you mentioned too.
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Yes, listen to what Ray has said. I am not a full time metal fabricator but do a good deal of it in my custom fabrication business. I have a 110 volt TIG machine with the most cumbersom part being the bottle of Argon needed. So welding on-site is not a problem. I'm not very practiced in SS but I know that I could weld 14 gage and grind out a seam to be invisible. The guys who do it every day can do it much faster and in more complicated positions. Keep looking for a metal fabricator who doesn't bat an eye when you tell him what your client wants.Jeff
Thanks
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excuse me for being cavalier about this SS operation but you will rarely ever use an "easier" countertop material than SS
the only hesitation I would have is that your suppliers do not sound confident enough but the fact your client has seen a seam done by one of your suppliers and wants to go for it kind of greases the skids
It's been a couple of years since I've been involved w/ the stuff but I think it may come in like ( or is available ) 6 or 4 X 12' sheets and I remember utilizing the second to lightest ( thinnest ) material they stocked or offered
I've done a couple kitchens ( counter areas ), art studio and two glass shops - all substrates were 3/4 plywood if I remember correctly and I fashioned a little polyseamseal clear for adhesion
I think there was an unfinished face or brushed and I tried to push brushed but I think they chose either - can't get too obsessive about sheen - just make sure what you are receiving isn't prescratched - one fabricator tried to pawn a big piece off on me and it was a long heated exchange but I was made whole
just reread your initial post and see she has not seen a seam
that guy who does boats will have techniques and appreciation above and beyond your client
the size of yours will be the issue and on site welding / buffing will be in store - not easy to move a whole soccer field from shop to bldg site
Edited 5/30/2005 2:21 am ET by JOHNHARKINS
Yes, size is the big kicker.
I got up early to study plans and details and see that the long leg is 8'3" so there is no way this will go in as one piece. Onsite welding will be needed unless the glue down seam is OK with her. the sheet metal guy 0nly uses 18 Ga 'cause his break won't handle heavier stock or longer than ten feet.
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That is the way I'm leaning, but like I said, she doesn't want a rolled edge - asked for clean break
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Made a couple of the substrates for SS tops. Used paint-grade maple for the top and poplar for the edging. You can save a bunch if you build these yourself and deliver them to your metal guy.
The substrate needs to be smooth with roundovers of 1/4-1/2" on the edge profiles. Usually it's 16 ga, but you can go thinner, but not as thin as 22 ga. You can do square corners, but they may ding if you hit'em with a pot.
The seams I've seen are damn near invisible. There will be many seams along the edging as they cut/bend/weld the SS to shape. Scratches are no problem. You can use Scotchbrite with a RO sander just like Corian. For everyday cleaning, use Barkeepers Friend.
You can do a matching splash behind the stove by just siliconeing a sheet of 18 ga SS directly to the wall. Cleans up easy.
Taking the substrate right to his shop is a great idea. Saves the troubhle of making up an extra template for him.
Because we are on an island, a lot of things like that - templating - are left to me to do, because transportation for subs gets delayed ...
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Piffin, I've gotten one SS counter that had a rolled front edge and backspash. We ordered an Elkay sink that was welded in, totally invisible seams. Looked like the whole thing was punched out in a form. That was a short one, just 5 or 6 feet long, by Dan's Sheet Metal in Scarborough.
The house I'm working on now will have one 14' straight SS counter, the owner got a price from Dan's that he thought was too much and he has found a guy who will do it for very little money--like the $600 range. We'll see how it comes out. This owner has repeatedly had the problem of finding a bargain price usually means inferior quality, but the lesson doesn't seem to have sunken in yet. If the work is good I can get his name for you and see if he travels up your way.
Mike
Thanks. Sounds like that lowball price m ight be for lighter gauge metal and poor buffing on the weld joints, but I'm still interested in all I can gather.
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Forgot to add a couple of things in my post. SS has a "grain" to the brushed finish. seams will be less noticeable if you can run the seams with the "grain."
Before you commit to SS, you might want to get a couple of square feet of 16 ga 304 brushed, and silicone it to some 1/2" ply, put it next to the stove or sink, and live with it for a month. Set pans on it, scratch it, get greasy finger prints on it, and clean it. This will give you and DW a better understanding about the product. Be advised that the "industrial look" comes with a few more chores than other surfaces.
this is a customer, not the DW. when my DW heard about this idea, you should have seen the face she made!
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Piffin,
I can finally help you out for once. First, check out this site. http://www.julien.ca
They really are the masters. Not around the corner but not all that far either. I don't know if they do jobs this size. Some good info on their site. Really cool kitchen sinks too.
I would shy away from a substrate. Use heavy enough material to be self supporting. 16 Gauge minimum. It welds better and has less tendency to deform from the heat (oilcanning).
Any edge can be formed. From a sharp bend to a full radius.
Seams should be TIG welded, ground and repolished back to a #4 polish. That is a fine grained finish. About a 240 grit I think. It is easier to do in a shop than on site.
Commercial fabricators do that kind of work all the time. No underlayment (just thicker gage so that the c'top is self supporting. They usually fabricate as large a piece as they can transport and carry into the space, then they field weld the joints. They welds come out invisible, just like all the other welds.
I'm planning to install a SS top on quarter sawn Shaker style cabinets. Sinks to be one piece with the c'top to provide easy maintenance.
butch