I’m building a project with outside stairs up to the second floor entrance. The outside stringers for these stairs are each bolted solidly to rock-solid construction; one to the original house on the property and the other to the outside first floor wall of the new structure. From wall to wall — in other words the length of each tread — is 36 inches. My question is, is it ok to go with this and NOT include a middle tread from the upper porch down in the center of the channel between the outside treads. This is a 16 ft. run to an 11 ft high porch and building a middle stringer that would be strong enough to actually lend strength to the support will be quite a deal … though doable if need be. But I have another smaller porch on the property with 36 inch wide treads with only outside stringer supports with 2X tread-boards which I swear could support two 300 pound people without visible flexure.
Is that middle tread necessary? Is there a ‘rule of thumb’ in this situation? I’ve got a call out to local code people but they are notoriously slow around here… and the project is in progress.
Thanks!
T.
Replies
If the outside stringers are bombproof, I'd skip the center stringer if I was using risers and solid treads. A 1x or 2x riser screwed and glued to the back of the lower tread and glued to the bottom of the upper tread will support the treads far better than a center stringer. If those aren't your conditions, then a center stringer makes sense.
Risers act as beams to transfer the loads to the side stringers. Their span is only 3 ft. Any stringer down the center is also a beam, but its span is far greater.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Edited 4/13/2006 6:16 pm ET by Andy_Engel
Huh.
This is interesting to me. I was ... or HAD been ... wanting these stairs to be 'open' ... to be able to see through them as you walk up. But are you saying that if I put in the 'uprights' at the back of each tread that they would make the center stringer unnecessary?
thanks -
You could probably glue/screw a piece of 2x2 to the bottom of each tread. This would be best along the front edge, but could be put on the back edge if that looks better to you.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I could be wrong and probly am, but a 2x2 under the nose seems wrong from a tripping hazard respect...I think I saw it or something similar , get a red X in the past.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" Iam not a poet, but your hat is singularily inadequate"
Yeah, generally you'd have the tread project about 1.5" beyond the 2x2, to provide a "nosing".
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Its code in North Carolina to have less than a 4" openning between the tread and the riser. Not exactly sure what the code states. Just know that Mr. INsp. wants to see a riser board in that hole. SHortnail
If the treads are 2x, I think you can skip the center stringer and risers. If they are 5/4, they will be bouncy without risers or a center stringer. 1x or (anything synthetic) won't fly.
If they are 5/4, they will be bouncy without risers or a center stringer. 1x or (anything synthetic) won't fly.
I'm sorry ... I don't understand this. "5/4"???
What I'm looking at is 8" rise to 9" tread ... the steepest the county would allow me. It's outside but fairly sheltered ... the outside stringers are cut and up ... they're out of 2X10 Pressure Treated for ground contact. It's about a 16 foot run from ground to 11 ft. or so.
I just got a call from downtown saying "you can do it ... we can't find anything saying you can't ... but we strongly *recommend* a third stringer."
So .. I got the third stringer cut and laying here ... but it is REALLY flimsy running that full lenght so I'll have to beaf it up tremendously with wood or metal ... and the two outside stringers are so absolutely rock solid that I just donno if it's worth it to put in the center one ... having to over-build it so much.
T.
newbuilder, 5/4 is inch and a1/4 thick to an inch thick lumber your standard 1x4 is considered 4/4 or 4quarter if your outside stringers are only 2x10 i would definitely use a third stringer in the middle if you are not putting risers on this unit. i just cut four stringers today for a 45inch stair that we are using 1x vertical grain fir for treads with solid 1x risers. your city may not find anything to say no but i would for sure go with the third stringer.
Come again? You got 16' long stringers made of 2x10? OK, but where I am you could put a dozen of 'em and that wouldn't fly.
You're asking about overbuilding? With three? 2x10? 16' long? ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Come again? You got 16' long stringers made of 2x10? OK, but where I am you could put a dozen of 'em and that wouldn't fly.
You're asking about overbuilding? With three? 2x10? 16' long? ;-)
yes .. but what does it matter if they're 6 feet or 60 feet if they are bolted solidly to absolutely rock-solid walls??? The only way the distance would figure in is if they were hanging-free ... and that is exactly why I'm asking about the potential third one ... because it's the only one that will NOT be bolted solid.
I get it now. But even bolted at every tread, there can't be much meat left. The stringers can't be doing much of anything other than transferring a single tread load to a bolt. I don't have the ambition to draw it out but picturing it in my head, it's like 2" left of the 2x10 at the cuts? The central stringer would be able to barely hold its own weight. Maybe not even. In that case I agree with you -- don't bother with it.
What's odd is that there's not much in the code I've ever been able to point to, but 18" OC 2x12 is minimum required here. If the plan reviewer you end up with is having a bad day, they actually make you get a stamp.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
I get it now. But even bolted at every tread, there can't be much meat left. The stringers can't be doing much of anything other than transferring a single tread load to a bolt. I don't have the ambition to draw it out but picturing it in my head, it's like 2" left of the 2x10 at the cuts? The central stringer would be able to barely hold its own weight. Maybe not even. In that case I agree with you -- don't bother with it.
Well ... as I said .. this is why I'm askin. I got the two outside stringers up and realized that the middle one will, as you say, be struggling just to hold up its own weight! But what's the alternative on a long run like that? Even a 2X 12 would be unstable it seems to me! The cut, by the way, leaves 3 1/2 inches at each one all the way up. The only way I can think to go is with something welded or ? ? ?
I like the idea of bridging across each step ... like a 2X4 on edge across each tread underneath it.
I dunno .. gonna have to do some creative visualizing. Any suggestions welcome.
thanks!
T.
Edited 4/14/2006 1:02 am ET by newbuilder
To go with a third stringer, except for a piece of steel, you've got a pickle.
One thought that comes to mind, since you got 3 1/2", would be to fasten a 2x4 to each side of the bottom of the stringer, but then you end up with, at best (depending on the quality of the original 2x10) a 6x4 spanning 16'. Seat of the pants, I can't imagine the small deflection of the tread would even load that, given its own deflection.
Reinforcing the tread using the either a full height or shorter riser as a beam underneath as Andy and I think Dan described is a much better idea. A "normal" residential staircase would have the three stringers, plus a 3/4" thick riser on the order of 5 3/4" deep under the tread. That's probably overbuilt. ;-)
Is this residential or commercial?
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
I like to make closed-stringer stairs on my decks. I use a 2x12 and rout the treads into it about 1/2", and then use screws through the stringer into the treads. On long stairs I will sometimes also run a piece of allthread under the tread, in the fashion of wooden ladder rungs. Makes it very strong, stable, and allows for periodic tightening as the wood shrinks. Routing the treads in (and using only 2x for treads, no 5/4) will get me 3' clear span, very solid. I did one a couple of weeks ago where the stairs were 48" out-to-out, and I did put a center carriage in.
I think I'll go ahead with an on-edge glued/screwed 2X4 @ bottom of each tread. That *may* be overdoing it a bit, but I want this to be something I won't have to think about again for another 10 years. The middle stringer sounds possibly do-able .. . but with the great good fortune of having the opportuniy to make use of two absolutely solid walls just 36" apart from one anotherf ... it just seems sorta stupid to bother with running the difficult-to-support 16' stringer down the middle.
someone asked if it was residential or commercial ... it's *technically* residential ... but it's in a residential-slash-commercial zone ... so.. Anyway ... being built, at this point, as residential. COULD be converted, through application, to commercial in the future.
someone refered to water coming in between the boards and softening the walls. These stringers are up against felt on the new structure and will be 'sided' against when the siding goes on. There won't be an available gap for rain. On the original-house side it's ground contact pressure treated lumber against siding water proof siding ... no 'rot' in sight there either.
I'm going to go ahead and super strenghen the side stringers ... run 2X4 along the full length of the bottom of each, bolted to the walls, for another 3 1/2 inches of wood plus each with a glued/nailed metal strapping along the underside for metal support. Then I'll install 2X10 treads with 2X4 on edge along the middle bottom of each and toenailed to the treads at each end... or simpson holders.
Thanks for all the feedback .. still open .. always open .. if anyone has any more thoughts that may apply.
Thanks!
Terry
Sounds like you've decided what to do. However, I have heard of using strongbacks on stringers--2x4's flat glued and nailed to the underside of the stringer--similar to one suggestion of sistering two 2x4's along side the stringer flush with the bottom. That or the strong back would add strength (sistered 2x4's better than the strong back for several reasons).
That, and the sistered 2X4's are both excellent solutions and I appreciate hearing of them. But I can't really see a middle stringer actually *adding* to the overall strength. Particularly when compared to beefed up side stringers and treads. But, again, I'm still open to any further discussion. My work on this is still 'in progress' ... and I've learned just from tossing the idea out there, as I always do here.
Thanks -
A ~
The main thing the middle stringer does is tie adjacent treads together, so that a tread is supported by the ones above and below it. Of course, having a riser does this even better.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
thanks,
I'll bear that in mind.
I'm looking at a LOT of stairs before I'm done with this four story structure.
T.
Good luck with all those stairs! I worked at a house where the owner said the stairs to the basement had some problems. I looked--the builders had nailed one stringer to the adjacent wall, no problem there. The second stringer was a 2x12, but no wall. The worse thing was that they had simply nailed through the stringers into the end grain of the treads and risers. The outside stringer was moving away from the inside stringer on the wall and pulling the nails along with it so the steps were just sort of suspended on the ends of some 16 penny nails!
"someone refered to water coming in between the boards and softening the walls. These stringers are up against felt on the new structure and will be 'sided' against when the siding goes on. There won't be an available gap for rain. On the original-house side it's ground contact pressure treated lumber against siding water proof siding ... no 'rot' in sight there either."Newbuilder, I'm not sure I agree with the notion that water won't get in between the wall and stringer. First, the more solid contact the stringer has against the wall, finished or not, can allow the rain to get in. Water sometimes defy gravity due to wicking or wind. I'm not sure where you live and the amount of wind and rain you have but it can and often does create all sorts of problems especially when siding or roof shingles have no gap for the water to run freely. For example, if your siding is installed hard against your stairs water can and most likely will be a problem. A solution is to run flashing (lead or copper, not aluminum or steel) between your stair stringer and the house. Allow about 6" above the stringer and below. The siding should have a space of about a 1/2" from your stairs. This minimizes the freaky things water often does. I live on the ocean so we have to do things that aren't standard that appear to be over kill and redundant.
If you live in a moderate climate you should be fine though. Someone suggested allthread under the tread for extra strength along your span which is a great idea! If you would like it hidden you may be able to dado a channel in the tread to allow the allthread to be someone what invisible. At least from the front of the stairs.Richard
Thanks, everyone -- philarenewal, blue, rudiger and rrmdi -- I'm very grateful for the thoughtfull feedback!
philarenewal -- Everything you stated is true, and I believe you are exactly right in your assessment ... I got "caught in the in between" as you so perfectly rendered it. I'm attempting to do a 'too big' project for a guy who's done next to nothing before. And the back-up support I thought I would have is no longer available. So .. I'm on this very ambitious undertaking while 'learning as i go'. If I had it to do over I would consider the wisdom of it much more carefully, but it's 'in the works' now so I really don't want to now consider 'turning back'. Overall I'm enjoying the process .. but it's sloooooooowww!!! with one inexperienced guy basically building a house alone. Ok .. enough whining ..
Blue -- Hey! Quit double-skipping my ticker with those bright red CODE ALERT 's !!! :]
You've packed a lot of info in there. I'm not sure how I'm gonna go on the treads now until I call downtown and ask them about the 'nosing' question. I was going with open stairs because I didn't want to create a 16 foot water slide when it rains here. I figured an open -- non riser -- design would allow for rain-water to run off wherever it landed. It had seemed to me that boxing it all in would mean that in a heavy rain ... and as everyone seems to know we do get'm here in Seattle ... it would build up on the stairs and flow down gaining volume as it went. This would cause it to be dumped right at the first floor doorway ... primary in/out traffic area. As I write this it occurs to me that this may be why everyone uses 'double treads' with a 'crack' running between. I like the look of a solid stair -- seen, now that I think of it, in INdoor stairways -- so was going with that. But all of this talk of the stronger stairs with a riser ... something I never would have considered before .. makes me think that perhaps I should reconsider the riser -vs- open stair question! Above all, I want the stairs to be strong and reliable. I HAD planned on the third middle stringer from the start and the ONLY reason I began to consider leaving off with it was because it began to seem to me like it would NOT strengthen and MAY even detract from the over all strength. But all of this discussion begins to convince me that if I'm leaving off the middle stringer I'd better consider strengthening in other ways (duh!) and that everyone here believes that risers make the difference. Would this, then, mean double tread boards? Seems like it. If so, since my stringers are already cut to 9" tread-carriages, I'd have to go with a 2X4 and a 2X6! ... that gives nine plus a riser. Two 2x6 would give 11 ... too much .. especially with riser. And, in order to get the full strengthening outcome from the riser does its proper installation involve bringing it down to the back edge of the lower stair? Otherwise ... it's serving no more purpose than the stringer itself it would seem to me. Also, would one cut the risers out of 3/4 ply? -- am trying to imagine something that would look half-decent against that brown g.c. treated 2X ... hard to think of anything. Ok .. maybe too many questions here. Let me just say that what I HAD planned on doing was to run a 2X4 along the bottom of each tread .. lengthwise for added support of the tread. They were either going to go on edge or just face to face. And finally, I'll make the understatement of the new century; I'm no engineer.
wrudiger -- "It sounds from your original post that the stairs lead up to the main entrance to the house (porch and entrance on the 2nd level). Is that correct, or is this a secondary entrance?"
yes ... this is a sort of 'studio' on the ground floor .. 10 ft. ceilings .. separate entrance from the rest of the structure above ... then these stairs -- the stairs in question -- sneak up between it and the o. house to an entrance to the second floor which has inside access to stairs leading to the third flr, fourth flr. and rooftop.
I appreciate your (and any) aesthetically oriented input. I don't know if I agree that open stairs look like crap ... but I am, as noted above, more and more considering the 'wisdom' of risers. [good book title! >> "The Wisdom of Risers"].
rr mdi -- the allthread idea sounds intrigueing. I know nothing about it and would have to research it. thanks for the bit on moisture. Now i'm starting to get pissed that i just didn't buy all metal parts for these stairs .... as they ARE very central to the over all use of the building ... I'm sure that just about the time i'm wrapping up with them I'll see something online or somewhere around town that makes clear to me how I coulda had bombproof metal stairs with a 100 year warranty that you could walk a pregnant elephant on without flexure for a reasonable price. But of course, in order to see that ... I'll have to first finish the stairs my clumsy, old-fashioned way.
Thanks again to everyone in the thread ... it's really amazing to have access to the abundance of experiential knowledge that lives here.
I'm off to, hopefully, totally set and bolt up both stringers with all final supports. Tomorrow will be the tread-work, so any more feedback received today will influence exactly how that is done. In the end, if I'm completely pleased with them, I'll post a picture.
Happy Easter
T.
just a note:
I see that in Graphic Guide to Frame Construction under 'Stair Framing' it clearly shows that the risers rest on the back of the stringer tread-carriage below. I would have thought that this arrangement would not 'head-off' the weight as well as if it was resting on the lower stair itself ... but it's clear that that is 'how it is done'.
Also, blue, yes ... they show a 1 to 1 1/2 inch nosing.
I guess my most relevent question at this point then might be what would a good riser material be ... considering that, thus far, everything is out of g.c. / p.t. 2X. ?
thanks -
The main reason that stairs are usually built with the riser hitting the back of the tread below, vs resting on it, is that it eliminates the need to carefully cut the risers to height. Riser height must be adjusted for fit more than any other stair parameter, and it's pretty inconvenient to have to rip every riser on site.The main case where you might want the riser to rest on the step below would be with cut stringers where you don't want the raw edge of the stringer to show. In that case you either install the risers first (you can fudge the bottom edge to bring the top edge flush with the cut of the stringer), or you install the treads first and then rip the risers to height. In this latter case, though, you must assure that the tread depth will be sufficient for code after the risers have "subtracted off" the back part.One other peripheral point: Because code PERMITS a steep stair does not mean that a steep stair is ideal. Knocking an inch or two off riser height (and making treads correspondingly deeper, according to the formula) can make for a much more comfortable (albeit horizontally longer) stairway.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
this is good ... thanks, Dan.
But there MUST be a structurally significant difference in whether the riser rests ON the stair below, or BEHIND it on to the same surface AS the stair below.
I guess the question is, for OVERALL STRENGTH ... which would be better ... or IS there a decidedly measurable difference?
btw -- it would seem that the "raw edge of the cut stringer, below" would 'show' no matter how the riser was set. In any case it would cover the cut stringer face ... whether tucked down below the stair below or resting snuggly on it.
T
If the riser is reasonably well fastened to the stringers (eg, with cleats) it isn't going anywhere.If you install the risers first you can cover the cut front edges of the stringers. (You'd almost certainly want to do this with three stringers, BTW, or the middle stringer would be a real PITA.) If you build the stair open and then essentially "retrofit" risers from the back then the front edges of the cut stringers will show.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
stopping in to check here ...
again .. it seems to me the question at this point would be whether or not there is a difference in the structural integrity of the riser placed behind the tread -vs- the riser placed ON the tread-back. btw .. in my last post I meant to say that no matter which way was chosen/utilized EITHER would cover the cut stringer face. I.e., either ON the stair below or BEHIND the stair below would rest AGAINST the vertically cut fac of the stringer ... the 'rise-face' of the stringer. So the question isn't aesthetics now ... it's integrity .. strength.
Any takers on this question ?
Thanks -
Like I said, if the riser is reasonably well fastened, it provides enough strength without resting on the tread below. Would it be stronger still if it did rest on the tread? Probably, but that much additional strength isn't needed.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
you mentioned 'cleats'
howzabout simply nailing against the vertical stringer face ... or nail/glue ... and perhaps into the back edge of the lower stair (?)
Assume for the sake of argument that you have 2x treads and risers. If the riser laps the back edge of the tread by at least an inch, then about 4 16d nails through the riser and into the back edge of the tread, angled slightly downward, would probably be all that's needed.
But note that you still need something at the top of the riser to keep it from sliding forward or back. This could be toenails into the stringer and/or upper tread, or you could fasten downward through the upper tread. Or, if you have cut stringers, the risers can be installed against the cuts (either before the treads or cut to height) and face nailed.
I'm partial to cleats, however.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
so there's nothing i don't know about 'not face-nailing into the vertical cut of the stringer' or suchlike. just wanted to be sure.
I wish there were a 1X material that was treated for weather. 2X is too thick for risers on my already cut stringers ... and one can't very well nail into the edge of ply. Ply too ugly anyway.
I'll do (if formal risers) a few nails into the back edge of lower tread ... a couple down into upper riser-edge through top-tread (if i can figure out a 1X or a 3/4 material) .. and one or two faced through riser ends into stringer. then i'll call in the bombs and see if she holds up to 'em.
thanks again.
They do make 1x material treated for weather Newbuilder.
But 2x material will work too.
2X is too thick for risers on my already cut stringers
That statement is not correct. As long as you put the 2x material on every face of your stringer, the 9" relationship will be consistent. If you do use 2x material for your risers, a double 2x6 tread top will work fine. I'd be inclined to rip a little bit off the back tread to get the nosing back into the 1.5" range. I'd also use a middle stringer to keep the split tread from wandering.
I've built a lot of exterior stairs using 2x risers and doubled 2x6 treads. I normally cut the stringers with a 9.5" run, rather than ripping the treads though.
blue
thanks blue.
oddly enough, it wasn't until my work day was over and i was inside and imagining the work i'd done relative to the postings here from the day (yesterday) that i realized that you were right about the 'code alert' on the nosing issue. at the time it seemed like a non-issue. and it actually may be if i dont use risers. it depends on whether or not they will require that of me here in my county for outside stairs. i've got a call in now and am waiting to hear back. As it is my treads will extend about 3/8 inch beyond the stringer cut on each end. But without risers preventing one's step from landing fully forward it seems a mute point to me. The stairs 'look' absolutely fine as they are (when I set them for how they'll finally look)... but i do appreciate your illustration yesterday showing how I could add the (possibly) necessary nosing with the partial riser. As stated, I'll know soon whether that's required or not.
You're right, of course, that as long as the same backing/riser is used all the way up (15 stairs) then 2X riser is not "to thick". But it's also true that a 2X would project the nosing apprx 2" which seems too much. 1X, if I can find it, would solve that problem and would also alleviate the need for all that back-trimming.
"I've built a lot of exterior stairs using 2x risers and doubled 2x6 treads. I normally cut the stringers with a 9.5" run, rather than ripping the treads though."
A 2X riser with double 2X6 treads would be, with gap, over 12 1/2 inches in all .. on a 9.5 run that's a 3 " nose. You must mean with a riser resting on the back of the back tread(?)
---------------
ok .. i *just* got the callback from downtown and, as it turns out, he claims that there really is no need for 'nosing' on an open (non-riser) stairway. This is the point I was making above ... that it would seem that without a riser to block one's foot then no over-extended upper tread would be necessary. There is, as it turns out, a question of whether one can go without a riser if the whole between the treads is over 4" however. I think they don't want small children tripping and falling through! With 8" rise my 'hole' will be 6 1/2 inches. But what I'm going to do is build the steps with solid 2X10's ... which, in the batch I have measure out at 9 3/8" ... without risers, but with added support under each tread. If the inspector doesn't like it I'll retrofit risers later. And if he ends up demanding nosing, I'll definitely use your method as per your etch-a-sketch. Now if I could only figure out how best to hide the ugly vertical cuts on the side stringers!
THANKS!!!
Terry
Terry, a stair system is not comfortable to walk up without the nosing, even if it has open risers.
Even if you use open risers, you should include an overlap that would suffice as nosing. That overlap would be about 1 - 1.5". Your county feller might not quite understand how important a nosing is, but you now cannot plead ignorance because you've been informed.
Of course, you have the option of building an inferior set of stairs, but I wouldn't advise that.
Your math on my stair systems is correct, IF I used a 9" run. I don't use a 9'' run. When I build an exterior set of stair using 2x6'', I normally use 2 but sometimes use 3. If I use two, I nail them tite together because they will shrink and leave a perfect gap.
Here's my math: 2 2x6's = 11" Less the 1.25" nosing leaves a 9.75" run. For a 2 2x6 tread, I use a 9.75" run and have a 1.25" nosing.
If I'm using 3 2x6's, then the run is 15.25" with a 1.25" nosing. With a longer run like that, I use a smaller rise...somewhere in the 6" inch range. I test them out and make them feel comfortable.
Walking up stairs without a nosing is a trip hazard. Your open rise eliminates some of the tendency to trip, but not all because the travelers don't want their pinkies hanging off the back of the tread. Therefore, they use a differnent angle of approach...thus the trip hazard is back in play.
Don't chitz out..add those nosings.
If I was hellbent on using only a 2x10, I'd reduce the run to about 8.5" and keep a .75" nosing. That's how important I think they are.
blue
Blue,
It's late and I've got a little too much Merlot in me at present to respond effectively.
But I really appreciate your care-full feedback. I hate thinking that I 'have no choice' but to use risers ... I'd rather have stairs without them in this particular case .. but I'm not sure how to effectively put together the nosing with the stringers I've already cut at 9". But as I say ... don't trust myself to respond well tonight. Thinking tweaked.
I hear your experience speaking and no .. I don't wanna build schlock... so .. thanks. Again .. I hear ya and I'll figure it out 'with nosing'.. will respond better later.
thanks for the feedback -
T.
wouldn't it seem that using two tread-boards per step, edge to edge,'drainage' crack between, would be considerably LESS strong and cohesive ..less integrous ... than using one, solid tread .. screwed/glued at the back tothe next riser and glued at the front under-edge to the lower riser?
Yes, two tread boards per step would be weaker than one solid piece. But if the strength of either technique is sufficient, then both ideas are viable.
But.......have you ever taken a look at the 2x12's that I would have to use for the tread? They usually are brutal. They cup, they warp, they twist. They do everyting but remain straight. I'm usuallly thankful that I can find a decent 4' long piece for the stringers.
many (most/all) of my decisions are made in the field and are subject to the local conditions and available products. There are many ways to skin a cat and all of them might be right. That applies to stairbuilding too.
Keep in mind that about 90% of the weight on a step lands on the outermost 4 inches or so. If you've got a riser under the step edge, supporting it, then it doesn't really matter how strong the step itself is.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
my steps are about 3' wide ... so i'd be purchasing 2X12's in 10 foot lengths and carving 3 full steps outa each. The wood around here .. PacNW ...is pretty damn good these days ... most of it from British Columbia. I've got a 10' p.t. X12 sitting out in the structure I'm building right now that's straight as an arrow and very very 'sound'.
I'm not just thinking of the strength of the individual steps themselves ... I'm thinking of the OVERALL integrity of the structure as a whole. The fact that, if built solidly, step to riser to step to riser ... that it would be "all of one piece" as they used to say. With splitting the treads .. it's, once again, the stringers holding together a collection of separate pieces that do not 'really' totally join. But you are, of course, cocrrect in your stating that one being 'better' does not automatically translate as the 'lesser' not being adequate ... or 'good'.
IF i 'knew' that this set of outside 11' high stairs would last longer and have less likelihood of developing splits, cracks, or problems over the years if I used one solid tread per step instead of two X6's ... I'd go with that. (HOWEVER ... that would mean no drainage as well ... and in a notoriously wet city.)
So ... I cut and fitted all the risers today ... 15 in all ... tomorrow's the treads ... so .. still gotta decide. Either way ... I'll be SO damn happy to finally have these stairs licked!!! I NEVER dreamed they'd be such a project in and of themselves!
REALLY appreciate all the excellent feedback on these matters!
T.
and by the way ... pls try an see to it that this never happens to any of you:
http://www.searle.to/images/pic22798.jpg
thanks -
Ouch!!!!!!!!!!
Please update us when you get your privates fixed. Tell us how the lawsuit goes too.
I can't understand how you can build stairs in such pain! You are the MAN!!!!
Seriously, please post pics if you can. Pics of the stairs...not of the private parts!
blue
will do ...
((stairs ... no privates .. promise))
T.
"I normally cut the stringers with a 9.5" run, rather than ripping the treads though."
Isn't code minimum 10" for tread depth?
Depends on where you are. In the northeast, 9 in. is common.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
9.5" inch run on the stringer + 1" nose on the tread= 10.5". I think that's what he means.
No Soultrain. Here in michigan, we can use a run of 9".
We might even be able to use less of a run, I'm not sure, but 9'' is very common.
blue
I wish I could use that here. My staircase stops exactly 3 feet shy of the front wall in our house.
One potential problem that has been overlooked is pressure treated would has its quirks.I have seen the whole tread and riser on one step break off over time. Another problem is when the outside stringer is attached to a post or wall,and the inside stringer is attached to a wall and the middle stringer is left floating, what will happen is, overtime the nails or even screws will begin to pull loose(because most of the traffic is on the center stringer not the outside stringers).So the center stringer also needs to be supported. Hope fully you used 2x12s for stringers and even so that is a fair long span for two stringers only,even if your using 2x10 treads.Last but most importantly you have to consider how many people will be using this set of stairs daily.
If i were facing the same set of structural needs ... in other words, if I had it all to do over again ... I would use simple, treated lumber for above grade application, and I would use the whole board, uncut, for the stringer on each side .. with cleats to hold the treads. MUCH simpler, stronger, better looking. But I'm half way through it now and have quite a time and money investment in what is going up. I think 'cut stringers' are a bad idea on stairs over .. what .. i dunno .. 4 or 5 feet maybe. I'm fortunate in that I have these two solid sides to bolt to ... but overall .. again .. wish I woulda gone with cleats and WHOLE uncut boards.
live an learn ... many more stairs ahead .. tho none so high a run.
T.
>>"in other words, if I had it all to do over again ...
I hear you. But look at a staricase as an assembly, a system, more than a bunch of parts. A well made staircase can be the focal point of an entire building and is made a time tested way so that it can look the way it does.
What you kindof have now is bits and pieces of a time tested design (cut stringers but no risers -- what the heck is that all about sort of thing). You got to go all or nothing on your approach.
If you are going with deck stairs, don't cut the stringers, put in your cleats or steel brackets, and it will look like deck stairs.
If you are goin with a staircase, then make a frickin staircase.
Maybe the in between is where you got caught.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
It sounds from your original post that the stairs lead up to the main entrance to the house (porch and entrance on the 2nd level). Is that correct, or is this a secondary entrance?
You've gotten a lot of great engineering input here - lots of ways to do this correctly - but I gotta weigh in on the aesthetics. Unless you are doing an industro-loft thing open front stairs look like crap IMHO. AND, as davidmeiland mentioned, a code violation. Third bonus - full risers make the whole thing stronger.
First, the terminology. Stringers are the notched pieces you made out of 2x10s. Treads are the horizontal pieces you walk on. Risers are the vertical pieces that are under each tread.
Around here, no open riser stairs are allowed. They are a risk for small kids. So, your question about omitting a stringer or using open risers would end there. Second, what was your method of attaching the stringers to the exterior walls? The problem I see is that water will live there between the stringer and wall, rot out the stringer, and migrate into the wall at the same time. Third, it really isn't hard to install a ledger at the top of the stairs and hang a third stringer from it. It will make the stairs more solid (if you made it out of large enough material). The only time I see stairs with no middle stringer(s) is when the treads are 3x or 4x. In those cases the treads are usually installed with Simpson TA anyway.
Stairs on our deck are all 2x redwood. No center stringer, but risers used to brace both above and below as previously described. Side stringers are also uncut -- used cleats instead. Cut stringers are a waste of wood and time, and are incredibly weak.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
CODE ALERT!!!!
Newbuilder, I've built hundreds of stairs with 2x10 stringers, when the stringers are solidly anchored to side walls. I've also built hundreds of them with no center stringer (basement stairs that don't get drywalled underneath) . But.....every set I've done has had closed risers and the risers contribute significantly to the structural strength of each tread. The risers keep the tread from bowing under the weight of someone that weighs in over 300 pounds.
Ive also worked on some (ten or fifteen) with beefier treads, and no risers and center stringer and 4" thick side stringers.
Basically, I'm telling you that there are many ways to skin a cat and just as many ways to create a strong set of stairs.
Outdoors, I've also used the 2x4 nosing idea to beef up the tread without a full closed riser. Your idea of using the 2x4 on the edge is a good idea and I've used it successfully myself. I think you are planning on doing it differenty than I normally do, but as long as you plan your layout carefully and create the required nosing, you will be fine.
One red flag went up when you described your parts. You mentioned that you are using 2x10 tread material. That won't work because they are only 9 1/4" wide. When you factor in your 9" run, that leaves only 1/4" for your nosing. Code requires more than 1/4". Around here, we normally go with 1 1/4" nosing. That means that you would need a minimum tread width of 10 1/4". I'm confident that your local codes are similar.
You could accomplish your proper stair arrangement by mounting the 2x4 nosing on the face of the tread. That would give you a total tread depth of 10 3/4". With a nine inch run, that leaves 1 3/4". That probably meets code in your area.
Heres a quick sketch of what I've done in the past. The 2x4 strengthens the tread and eliminates the need for the middle stringer.
i've always used a center stringer on exter stair ways that are wider than thirty inches. when you consider the added loads that these stairs often see and the wear and tear from weather over time it makes sence. additionaly, I always use screws, counter sunk and plugged and "water proof" exterior grade adhesive for the tread to stringer and riser to stringer connection.
waht about some steel angle wraping the back of th tread and under the front held back for the nosing. it would be less height than a 2x4 on edge.
The plywood risers look stupid against the pressure-treated 2X's Guess I'll stain em ... but man o man ... sure looks better with open stairs instead of with those damn risers. The risers just look stupid! BUT ... everyone tells me they make for a MUCH stronger staircase in all .. including the books... so ..
But when I leave them off and just 'insert' the stairs goin on up the stringers ... it looks GREAT! So .. I'm building dumb-looking stairs.
Tomorrow I'll screw them all together. Maybe I should just 'prime' the risers and figure out a good color to PAINT them later .... instead of staining them brown. donno .. proly just end up staining them to get it over with.
t.