Replies

1. 
   Geoff_B | Mar 13, 2002 07:27pm | #1

   *
   Liability Lawyers dream. You obviously have concerns. I'd say "no thanks" to that one.

1. 
   Jeff_J._Buck | Mar 14, 2002 02:22am | #2

   *You'd be projecting a toe-trip hazzard on the way up...and a heel-trip hazzard on the way down. Tera them out and build them safe...and to code. Lengthen the staircase.....not the treads. Jeff

1. 
   Richard_Utter | Mar 14, 2002 05:12am | #3

   *As I mentioned before, I'm just the remedy here. The staircase is there to stay. Nine foot basement walls and homeowner design creates step stair cases. I would have went with another design myself but this was not my call nor my job. I'm trying to fill in for a friend that was in a serious snowmobile accident. The stairs are there to stay, I'm just trying to make the most of a difficult situation. I have already recommended hand rails on both sides to make these as user friendly as possible.

1. 
   Gene_Davis_ | Mar 15, 2002 04:08am | #4

   *What's your limiting factor here? A 6 rise with 7- 3/4 run sounds like Leprechaun stairs. In the same total run (if that is your limiting thing) you can do 7-1/4 by about 9-3/8 or 7-1/2 by about 9-5/8. Give your stair climbers a little toe room!

1. 
   George_Roberts | Mar 15, 2002 04:16am | #5

   *The customer want longer treads and my code book requires 10" treads min.Give the customer longer treads. (Read the code book on how to measure tread length, you are measuring it wrong.)I don't do design work on the internet, but it is easy to comply with the code.

2. 
   Bucksnort_Billy | Mar 15, 2002 04:40am | #6

   *I'm thinking Geo. means wider treads. We have the same 10" min., CABO code, and a max 1" tread overhanging the riser. Tilting the riser a 1/4" shouldn't create a safety hazard, most manufactured landing tread has a 1 and 1/4" nose. Just keep them all within 3/8" of each other on the rise and runs. And, the top and bottom risers can be 3/4" different from each other. Not exactly comfortable, but codable...'nother tack, call the building inspector, they can be very helpful...

3. 
   Richard_Utter | Mar 15, 2002 06:06am | #7

   *My delima here is that if I can possibly get near a 10" tread, my riser may be set at 20 degrees. I need to draft this out, which I may do this weekend to see what options I have. I just thought others here might have delt with cramped stairways. Is there a rule of thumb for tilted risers on degree of pitch. I feel like the fella on the Dell Computer commercials, makes my head hurt.

4. 
   Mike_Maines_ | Mar 15, 2002 08:30pm | #8

   *The way the BOCA code is written the minimum dimensions are for the rough frame. You can't just widen the tread and be within code. Richard, you are right, you are creating a serious trip hazard up or down. However, many old houses here in New England are built with very steep secondary stairs which work alright as long as you are careful and have handrails on both sides. If you aren't concerned about code, I would just stick to the normal 1" or so overhang and use conventional treads and risers. And consistently refer to them as "ladder stairs". As for dimensions, I would use the old rule of thumb that tread plus riser equals 18", plus or minus an inch. That is a comfortable stepping distance regardless of the pitch. Is there any chance you can recut the stringers to accomodate tread + riser = 18"?

5. 
   piffin_ | Mar 16, 2002 06:42am | #9

   *It will take recutting new stringers but it can be redone safely to something near 7/10You now have a ratio of 7.4417.5" rise over 10" run is a ratio of 7.5You can work it out.

6. 
   Richard_Utter | Mar 16, 2002 07:38pm | #10

   *I wish I could but it has been rocked and plastered. I knew they were wrong when they were built but it isn't my job so what do you do. The homeowner and contractor laid out the floor plan and this is what we have to live with. They would have been better off with a spiral staircase since no one wanted to give up floor space above to turn these steps left, right. I'm telling ya, it makes my head hurt!

7. 
   Mike_Maines_ | Mar 17, 2002 12:00am | #11

   *Richard, part of your job may be to convince the customer to at least reframe the stairs to something reasonably safe. The dimensions you list will be extremely awkward to use, dangerous, and the homeowners may badmouth you if you don't at least put in some effort in convincing them why they NEED to change the dimensions.If the walls are rocked & plastered, you could take out the center stringer(s), knock the "teeth" off the outside stringers, and set in the new ones with more correctly sized notches. Should be just a couple hours of work for vastly improved stairs....If the underside of the stairs is plastered just knock off all the "teeth" and sister new stringers on to the old.

8. 
   Richard_Utter | Mar 17, 2002 06:24am | #12

   *MMThat is a thought, oak trim is already installed on both sides. It's rocked and plastered below also. I don't know my total rise and length off hand but it seems that a few less steps with longer treads and more rise might be in the works. I fear resale value would be affected also. I will run this past the homeowner to see if he wants to put the effort into it.

9. 
   piffin_ | Mar 17, 2002 06:38am | #13

   *My point about the pitch ratio is that you can do fewer steps in the same space and make it work and be safer and more comfortable. You could possibly scab new stringers right onto the side of the existing.

10. 
    GaryR_ | Mar 17, 2002 04:14pm | #14

    *Richard, I, as many other carpenters want to please our clients, but please keep in mind that if you CAN NOT rebuild and or modify these stairs to CODE then walk away.

11. 
    Richard_Utter | Mar 17, 2002 08:08pm | #15

    *Here's my position on this. The guy I'm hooked up with is building this house, he built the stair case as happens when your the answer man on a crew. On March 4th he was riding his snowmobile along BNSF tracks, when he came to a rural railroad crossing he crossed as a freight train was passing through at 40 to 45 mph. They met at the crossing at the same time. He remains in the hospital today. He lost his left leg six inches below the knee, had a steel socket put in his left elbow, steel plate and screws in his left forearm, ring finger on his right hand is broken to the wrist. His head and internal organs are ok amazingly. The homeowner was riding with him this night and as a matter of fact probably saved his life. He elevated his leg a squeezed it for a turniquite. He also requested life flight rather than an ambulance. So you can see that my position here is to leave a quality and correct product without stepping on any ones toe's so to speak. I do appreciate your comments and will print this off to show the homeowner the options that we have.Thanks for the information and any more that you think would help squaring away this set of stairs.Richard Utter

12. 
    Tim_Kline | Mar 18, 2002 04:36am | #16

    *This is really a heart wrenching story that could only be made worse by someone falling down these dangerous stairs. After someone does fall down the stairs, then no one will think twice about replacing some drywall, plaster, and oak trim. Rip the stairs out now and save a lifetime of headaches.

13. 
    piffin_ | Mar 19, 2002 04:15am | #17

    *Really, the stairs need to be rebuilt safely.How do I comment tactfully on this emotionally sensitive situation?Well, I'm usually better at cutting to the chase than at being tactfull and sensitive so here goes and please forgive me."His head and internal organs are ok amazingly."How do I accept that his head is OK?This is a guy who knowingly bult a nonacceptable flight of stairs.This is a guy who knowingly rides a snow scooter on RR tracks.Those are not signs of a guy whose head is OK.Sorry.

14. 
    Richard_Utter | Mar 19, 2002 05:38am | #18

    *piffinThis is a crazy world that we live in. As we all know or don't know is when your numbers up. I myself have no idea how he kept from buying the farm on this one. This is a guy that patience is not in his vocabulary. I ask him Sunday night how he was doing and how he was dealing with this, his response was that all the alternatives that he could come up with are not as good as he is now. In reality the stair case sucked from the get go, to make things right is now what we need to do. My concern is to correct the staircase and with the help of those here I feel that we will accomplish this. I need to take my digital camera with me to get some pics of what I am describing. I will also get some measurements to throw around you guys to see what numbers will work. I do appreciate any and all posts about this topic. Imagine how things on your job would be if the guy you throw questions at was not there in the mourning, believe me it sucks. Again thanks for your input and your responses are my guy missing.Richard Utter

15. 
    George_Roberts | Mar 19, 2002 08:17am | #19

    *Richard ---You can not take enough measurements for us to help you, you simply do not know enough.Either talk to you building inspector or hire a local person with some knowledge.Code books list requirements for stairways. DIY books give the details. If you listen to us, the solution will not fit your needs.

16. 
    Saw | Mar 21, 2002 09:12am | #20

    George,

    I ASSume that you have never heard the phrase, if you don't know, ask. But I would suspect that you would have trouble being quiet long enough to here a response. I'll bet your a blast to be around for eight hours a day. Hey, don't take this the wrong way because maybe I don't know enough either. Drop by some time when you spread your knowledge throughout Illinois.

17. 
    Mongo | Mar 25, 2002 08:16am | #29

    I did exactly what Mike described to renew a slightly botched set of stairs.

    Removing the stringers was not an option due to how they were installed as well as a few other considerations.

    So I cut the "teeth" off, as Mike described, and set the new stingers next to the three old stringers. the new were prperly secured at the head and foot, as well as screwed and adhered to what was left of the old stringers.

    For the skirt trim, I butted another piece to the top of the old anc covered the seam with another piece of trim.

    A bit of labor and a bit of head-scratching, but the new set looks great.

    With stairs, honestly, you have to either build them right or not build them at all. Stand firm on this one, or these unconventional stairs could come back to haunt you in the future.

2. 
   blue_eyed_de | Mar 21, 2002 02:36pm | #21

   Richard, if you attempt to fix those stairs, using the methods that you've described, be prepared to give everything you own, and everything you will own to the person that will inevitably trip, hurt themselves and sue you.

   You are doing a grave dis-service to proceed, after you've been warned by professionals. If you didn't know, it would be different.

   I would most definitly walk away, unless I was allowed to re-build to meet standard codes.

   Get a pro in there or just empty your wallet and sign over your house.

   blue

1. 
   JohnSprung | Mar 21, 2002 10:40pm | #22

   Just in case you need yet another person telling you the same thing, here goes:

   No matter what your friend's sad story is, do not put yourself in the position of being legally responsible for stairs that are not to code.  You will get sued, and you will lose.

   -- J.S.

1. 
   Saw | Mar 22, 2002 06:20am | #23

   Guys,

   I think that we are in for a fix, it will be an additional cost but money well spent IMO.  I have been wrapping up several other items on the punch list and the homeowner has read the encouraging posts here and likes what he see's. I believe that we will resolve this issue with a fine set of steps. Some here have showed interest in a resolve rather than to lecture the code with no input on how to remedy the situation. I would like to thank them for seeing that I needed a doable fix rather than quote the code book.

   Thanks again guys,

   Richard Utter

1. 
   Piffin | Mar 23, 2002 10:58pm | #24

   we'll see how this posts here - a drawing showing that with info Mr Utter gives, it appears that he has ninteen risers at that layout. In the exact same space he can place fifteen risers at an ideal layout of 7/10.

   My program saves in bitmap which is to big a file for here so I printed to PDF and here goes:

   Excellence is its own reward!

   
1. 
   Saw | Mar 24, 2002 04:25am | #26

   Pifin

   Thanks for the time and energy you spent on this. I will let you know how things work out. Kevin got out of the hospital Friday and is glad to be home. He will have many trips back for therapy, checkups and fittings for his prosthesis but you have to play the cards your delt.

   Thanks again, Richard Utter

2. 
   Piffin | Mar 24, 2002 04:36pm | #27

   Something may still not be right here because I noticed that the lenghth you gave was 129" but the phjotos you sent let me count nineteen risers which would indicate 18 treads for 139.5" of run. Also the six inch rise doesn't work out with the total 116" rise so I assumed 6-1/8" which is right. You'll need to confirm some stuff on site.

   That was only twenty minutes of playing on my CAD program.

   Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   Saw | Mar 24, 2002 07:01pm | #28

   pifin,

   We measured from first step riser to the riser going to the subfloor. It is 18 steps plus the subfloor. It can be looked at this way, it is 129 1/2" of cutout floor space.

3. 
   Armin110 | Mar 23, 2002 11:37pm | #25

   Richard, take it from a stairbuilder, pass this one up. I have had to deal with a few of what you speak, my suggestion to the client always is "I will be happy to tear it all out and start over. but for liability reasons I will not attempt to remodel the existing stairs."