I’m about to cut holes in the wall for a new stairway that I am building to go into an old house. I have the length and rise worked out etc. I am a little in the dark about the width of the stairs though. The stairs will lead to an upstairs office and sewing room, so there won’t be a huge amount of traffic or furniture to go upstairs. The run is straight. It will be almost totally enclosed with sheetrock except the bottom 2 feet. I would like to have a railing on one wall. Any ideas as to a MINIMUM width and still be comfortable? I need to use as little space as is practible. Thanks in advance folks! The knowledge on this board is incredible!
Bud
Replies
I woudn't consider going less than 36" finished. Going with 42" is better.
Keep in mind that your needs may change in the future. You may want to use the room for something more down the road. A stairway that's too narrow is difficult to fix.
Why didn't Noah swat those two mosquitoes?
Office = desk. Make it 42 as a minimum. Anything less, and you'll regret it.
If it's a secondary, or servant's staircase, you could go less, to 30" or 32".If not,I'd make it at least 36".
On a recent Parade of Homes, one house had a two story foyer with a curved staircase to the second floor that measured 27". You could rub elbows with yourself in there, getting up and down it.
I think that they must have winched the large furniture in the upper rooms from the foyer (or put it together inside the rooms?), as the outside windows in the upper floors were double and triple 3' by 5'.
A very fancy, ornate house, with beautiful wood detailing. Had curved narrow hallways in the upper floors and a 24" door to the separate WC in the master bathroom. Must have been built for skinny people. The total effect walking thru that house was crazy and dizzying. You could get lost in there. There is no account for taste.
Our basement staircase, straight, with a thick cotton rope for handrail, on big eye screws, measures 28". Almost too narrow.
Even if it is a little used staircase, to go large enough seems like the most reasonable thing to do.
Consider what fixtures will be in the office and sewing room and you have to get them in there. 36" of stairway can get to be might narrow. If you have a door at the top be careful about choking off your stairwell with a narrow door.
Boss hit it with suggesting a 42" nominal SW. Might seem like a waste of space now but latter there will be times you'll be glad you did it
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Code does not allow anything less than 36" finished.
Bud,
I'd frame it to 38 1/2". That's a pretty standard RO, at least here in MA. Should be able to get pretty much anything through that, unless you have some really odd shaped corner desk that can't come apart....or something like that to get up the stairs.
also consider how much your handrail will project into your opening, sometimes this can reduce your clearance by 4" or so.
Bud,
Most of the plans will say 36" stairs so when we frame the rough openings on every house or addition we frame them a minimum of 38" that will give you stairs 37" finished from outside to outside of the stringer and allow for 1/2" sheetrock on both sides.
You said your not worried about furniture going upstairs but if you have any intention of doing so in the future and you have the room head off the opening bigger and set another 2x at 38" and you can always cut it out later with no problems.
Good Luck.
Joe Carola
i'm with joe... 38" rough would be our minimum... although the 38.5" might be a better minimum (that deisel posted..).
most floor plans have a difficult time sacrificing room to allow 42"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Code around here is 36 in. min. to finished surface. You wouldn't believe the number of times I showed up on a job and found the 36 inches framed stud to stud. Inspectors usually have a field day when it comes to red taging stairwells. However Narrow stairs are allowed if they service non sleeping areas less than 200 sq.ft. as in a sitting room, den or study. Or if the floor in question has a second code approved access such as a second floor deck with stairs to ground level. The main reason for the 36 in min width is to be able to get EMT's along with a gurny, to haul your sorryass down should you ever need it.
Depending on the sorriness of the ####, that is. I had an oversized Grandmaother who died in her sleep. They had to remoe the door, jamb, and a jack stud to remove her remains.
Door size is why I came in here. I agree with every one else framing rough at 37" minimum.. My own stairs are 48" and the places I design most often have 42 to 48" finished but remodels are hard to get over 36".
Anyway, the job here implies some sort of door at the top of the stairs. I would try for a 36" door which means that the stairwell grows to more like 42.
Next item is does this original poster know what he is getting into with reframing the floor joists to header off this well.
How 'bout it guy?.
Excellence is its own reward!
All good advice so far. There will be no door at the top of the stairs as this is a 200 sq. ft nook that will be used mainly for a sewing room and office and finished out very simply. The other issue is the amount of room that will be consumed by the stairway slope in the bathroom underneath the stairwell. That's the main reason for wanting narrow stairs. Today I will do some measurements and snap some chalklines and see what it will look like real time. Thanks a bunch so far folks!
Joe
I decided to add some stairs in the garage I'm framing to an upstairs loft area (30x30). USing 16"tji's. I pulled some nails out of one and moved it tight to the adjacent one.
Adding one next to the wall as well..I'm left with about 34" R.O.
Kinda wish it'd have been larger but whattya think? Kind of a hassle now to move it.
Thought I'd keep the railings as low as safley ( did I say that right.....hmmm) possible so that anything I carry will be an easy haul.
Be (a stair) well
andy My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
Kinda wish it'd have been larger but whattya think? Kind of a hassle now to move it.
It's like anything else it depends on where your at and where your next 16" centers land. You might have to move one of those out of the way also. If you don't have the deck down already it's a breeze just put a plate across the bottom of the TJI's about 1' back from the 34" doubles and then prop them up with a couple 2x4's then sawzall the doubles out. Make the plate long enough to tack into the long double that's not being moved so that the TJI's don't sway on you.
Cut the the other long double out and slide it over (maybe even moving another 16" center out of the way) to whatever size you want the stairwell width and then cut your new double the size of the stairwell width and nail it in. You'll probably have to add another TJI perpendicular to the new stairwell opening double because you probably lost a 16" center by moving the main double.
If your decking is down and glued plus/walls/rafters/sheathing is already on like the one I did last year and the homeowner wanted to move the whole stairwell over 3' then it's a pain in the A$$ but can be done. Just write yourself out a Change order at $1,000.00 PER/HR.......................;-)
I want to see some pictures.
Be (a moved stair) well
Joe Carola
Edited 12/12/2003 9:03:15 AM ET by Framer
You'll find this Very helpful .. Stairway Code.
http://www.arcways.com/IRC2000a.pdf
Thanks Joe!
Joe Carola
you bet ! I got that from the JLC forum, I think, and I'm more than happy to pass it on !
Joe,
I figured that's where you got it from because I got it from there about 6 months ago and kept it in my truck and then brought it out on the job and never saw it again. It's good to print this out and keep a copy in the truck.
I was always told that you measure your 6' 8" headroom by putting a straight edge from tread too traed and then measure up 6' 8' from there for the finished opening not from the end of the tread. I've asked every inspector that question and all but a few will tell me that is the right way, at least here in NJ anyway.
Joe Carola
Joe
Most of the Advantech is already down.
The 16" tji's are 12" OC.
I was told I don't need to dbl them up.
Just install a dbl header and joist hangers.
One side of the stairwell will be up to the corner wall so no header is needed there other than what I have sitting across my top plate.
Those suckers are expensive.
About a hundred bucks a piece (32').
Any big item I need to carry uptop I can use the second floor gable end barn door I'll be putting in along with the ridge beam extended out about 3' with a block and tackle and winch so....
Pictures soon to come.
Be a stud
andyMy life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I was told I don't need to dbl them up.
Andy,
Who told you that? The company that makes the TJI's or the guy at the lumber yard?
The biggest TJI's I've used were 14" high and 3-1/2" wide flange and when the TJI company does the lumber list for you they send you back the framing plan and will speck doubles for any opening such as a stairwell, fireplace, plumbing box, well they might not speck out the plumbing box but I will do it anyway if you need a plumbing box. Or they will speck out using a 3-1/2" or 5-1/2" by what the height of your TJI is Parralam or billet beam, LVL.
Even on the pamphlet they give you with the TJI's will show that you double up the TJI and fill in solid where the perpendicular header will go wether you use a flush mount hanger or top mount hanger it still has to be filled in solid or use the 3-1/2" or 5-1/2" x Paralams or Billet Beams.
Andy, your the first person I've ever heard say that you don't have to double up on an opening before and it's not your fault but that concerns me a great deal about your house and I would ask the manufacture about that because you could have a serious problem unless it's because these are 16" high but I've still never heard of it or seen anyone not double up on an opening before using TJI's or 2x's.
The last house I frame we used 3-1/2" by 11-7/8"" TJI'S and the plans called for around all the stairwells and fireplace openings to have 3-1/2"x 11-7/8" Paralams or LVL's. I can't imagine that this company would tell you not to double up around this opening.
Please check it out or I'll come up there and frame a hip roof over your head and finish framing your addition for you. ;-)
Be Doubled up
Joe Carola
One of the reps I called told me that but I'm calling back again on Monday to check with another rep....also in one of the pamphlets I have it does show a section with single beams and a dbl header so thats what confused me about this stuff to begin with.
The last beam that lands up against the wall to the living part of the addition where I will nail the tji to every stud it sits against using a solid filler in the web, so I can see how that'd only need to be a single but the one that'll be on the oppisite side has me concerned so first thing Monday......
PS..Would you mind framing a gambrel around my head instead of a hip roof...or maybe a turret might be more appropriate cause its making me feel like a dummy.
Be a dunce hat
andy
My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Wouldn't the turret shape conflict/compete with the tipi?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Wouldn't the turret shape conflict/compete with the tipi?
Shouldn't you have saved that for the Inspired House Forum?My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Thanks for sharing. I would like to know what the thinking is for the requirement for a minimum nosing if you have the required tread depthand closed riser stairs. I realize that it is much nicer looking but for basement stairs it looks like you minimize the chance of catching your toes on it going up. It seems like the old code allowed that if you had a minimum tread depth.
I did mine that way and had no problems with our inspectors. I used 2X12 SYP stringers and glued and screwed cleats instead of cutting. Used same lumber for treads. Do not think you could find much stronger stairs. Ended up using scrap 5/8 osb for riser closing.
Joe
Tried E mailing you with no luck from Prospero....ugh.
Was looking for an email address for the framers bible with all the calculations. Seems I've always seen ads for that lil book till I needed it.
Any chance you have an E mail address?
Thanks and have a healthy and happy New Year
BE well to you and yers
andyMy life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
Here's the link for "The Roof Framers Bible". It's a great book and worth every penny.
http://www.remodeling-books.com/r-rb950.html
When you start the rafters please post pictures and measurements if you run into any problems and hopefully I can help you out or someone else can
You and your family have a Healthy and Happy New Years also.
Andy,
I just wanted to add that another book that you can't go wrong with is "A Roof Cutter's Secrets" (To Framing the Custom Home) can help you out with a ton of information with formulas, pictures, drawings with many types of roofs.
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/3febbcb4006600ac271a401e1d29063b/Product/View/RC102
Joe Carola
Edited 12/25/2003 11:51:24 PM ET by Framer
Joe
Thanks!!
Ordered both books...As you know, I'm not a framer per se yet I've framed tons of houses. As in my old website even did those dbl gambrels....whewwwww
Anyway....Cant say I aint willin' to always keep learning. I aint proud. DW says to me that I have low self asteam in spite of all I've done in over almost 30 years. She's right.
I just always see all that you guys and dem guys d, and it makes me jealous that I never worked on a framing crew.......whatever.
I always feel that theres sooo much to learn and so little time so..I just keep pluggin' away as usual.
My building inspector seems to be infatuated with me.....maybe cause my ego is so low and he relates to someone of almost 30 years in the field feelin that way...he gave me a number of a framer cause I asked for it.
He wasn't spose to do that yet he felt compelled to offer me the help I asked for. Too ;ate....lol..onto the 2nd floor.
Course I never called......He sees what I'm up against here tying the new into some serious old.....
I think he also dug the fact that I took this Afhgani archy student and am trying to turn him onto the excitement of building.
I think respect creates respect.
Anyway Joe.Yep, I'll post pix soon and thanks so much for the concern
Be well built
andyMy life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
If you do make the stairs wide enough for larger furniture items, other than when moving those up and down the stairway which probably would not happen often, you might consider the space wasted.
Or, you could build a removable "stepped" bookcase series, 6 inches deep or so which fit along one wall of the 42" wide stairway, each bookcase designed to rest on 2 or 3 steps, with removable wall fasteners for stability. They would be the perfect width for paperbacks, small objects (not breakable ones, unless you put on a transparent door), hanging small pictures, and so on. By making the cases removable, on those infrequent occasions when you needed the wider stairway, the cases could come out.
Just an idea ...
Edited 12/11/2003 7:18:39 PM ET by BJ
You plan on living there till DW is over 60??///////////////////////????????????????
If so 5 FEET is minimum, she stack more crap onthestairs to go up nexttimeanybody goes up that even my risk taking self ever was confortable with.
Forget them there 'dont put stuff on stairs' safety admonitions and scenarios, stairs in old age are SHELVES!!!!!!
FIVE FEET wide
Wished Ida know then what I know now (poor old sucker with 36" stairs)
right you are.
I tell my wife weekly ( as I am cleaning her "stuff" off the stairs) that the majority of injury accidents happen in the home, and that the majority of home accidents happen on the stairs.
To which she answers, "But I was going to take it up with me 'later'"
Of Course, 'later' is when I get around to cleaning my whiskers out of the sink.
Excellence is its own reward!
and sewing room
OHMYGOD!!!!!! a sewing room, you better go with SEVEN feet!!!!
Edit PS:: Is Theodora here?, is her sewing room on a second floor?? Would be good to get her opinion.
Edited 12/12/2003 6:31:59 PM ET by JUNKHOUND