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Discussion Forum

Staircase Balusters

h8 2paint | Posted in General Discussion on October 20, 2006 03:04am

good evening folks.

 I have a set of balusters to set up tomorrow for a new client.  I haven’t done this in some time, and am wondering if there are some ideas to simplify this installation.  The rail is already fixed at the bottom end of the staircase, but not at the top.  The return for the upper level rail will be there tomorrow as well as the ballusters.  If I make a good showing tomorrow,  I will probably have work through the winter with this guy.  Any suggestions will be appreciated. 

 

Thanks in advance

Tom

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  1. User avater
    harryhandsaw | Oct 20, 2006 07:08am | #1

    Assuming the balusters die into the stair treads. The front face on the baluster should be in line withe the face of the risers. Then fill in the distance between to meet code in Canada that is less than 4".

    1. h8 2paint | Oct 20, 2006 09:16am | #2

      Thought my post got removed from the forum due to a case of the stupid questions.  Thanks for the reply.  Code here in ST Louis is that a ball of 4"  dia. cannot be passed between the balusters.  I just was wondering if there is a method to take the two balusters per tread and make a "mass cutting". Am following a framer trying to do finish carpentry, great act to follow, just have a very limited number of balusters to work with. any foul-ups and I am short of balusters.

      What  I am thinking to do is fix the top of the handrail, keeping parallel with the nose of the treads, then get a consistent distance from tread nose to bottom of rail, cut  & fit them all, then get the same for the "back" set and cut them next.  The treads are already in place, so I am going to have to countersink/toenail these balusters in. Once all are in place, put fillets between balusters, putty or dowell all holes & stain.Zat make sense, or is that not a good approach?

      Most of the guys here have been working this art for many more years  than I have for sure...but some of the work I am having to come behind and correct makes me appreciate the skills & talent I have developed thus far.  By the way, when I get each new copy of my Fine Homebuilding, I feel like a little kid.  I read it cover to cover at least a couple of times, then try to apply at least one method from every issue in my work.  You guys have tought me a heck of a lot over the last 5 or 6 years without ever meeting one another in person.  I really love this stuff. 

      1. Framer | Oct 20, 2006 01:26pm | #3

        >> Am following a framer trying to do finish carpentry, great act to follow, <<What's that supposed to mean?Joe Carola

        1. h8 2paint | Oct 20, 2006 03:47pm | #4

          sorry, no disrespect to the framers here. simply meant that these guys are trying to do finish work with a 25 oz hammer and  a worm drive instead of a mitre box.  they went to HD, bought a $500 rigid compound mitre saw w/laserline, & cut butt joints in the corners, then filled it with caulk prior to staining.  no matter how I described these clowns at 2:00 am, it wasn't going to be nice.  examples throughout the house.  Some people pick up a hammer and "Look Mom, I'm a carpenter"...

          1. Framer | Oct 20, 2006 04:41pm | #6

            >> these guys are trying to do finish work with a 25 oz hammer and a worm drive instead of a mitre box. they went to HD, bought a $500 rigid compound mitre saw w/laserline, & cut butt joints in the corners, then filled it with caulk prior to staining. <<Those stupid morons, they're supposed to cope the corners with the wormdrive......;-)Joe Carola

          2. plumbbill | Oct 20, 2006 04:45pm | #7

            LOL

            After seeing some very intricate sculpting done with chainsaws I tend to stay away from the "yer using the wrong tool" commentsWhen asked why is there four engines on a 747------ "cause we couldn't fit six" a Boeing engineer

          3. Framer | Oct 20, 2006 04:48pm | #8

            When I was 18 I trimmed all the bushes in my mothers backyard with my new Makita..........came out beautiful...Joe Carola

          4. h8 2paint | Oct 20, 2006 04:59pm | #10

            y'know, it's not so much the machine or the tool.  "we do the impossible with nothing for the ungrateful"... it's the guy who goes to HD or Blows, gets a few tools, calls himself a contractor & runs off with the money.  I am tired of apologizing for us doing a legitemate job, (whatever the tool) after people have been scammed by some pos.

          5. Framer | Oct 20, 2006 05:22pm | #11

            >> it's the guy who goes to HD or Blows, gets a few tools, calls himself a contractor & runs off with the money. I am tired of apologizing for us doing a legitemate job, (whatever the tool) after people have been scammed by some pos. <<Unfortunately you can't do anything about that. Hopefully you can bid jobs for clients that don't look at rock bottom prices and want a quality job done. Or you can stay busy cleaning up after these POS.Joe Carola

          6. User avater
            Sailfish | Oct 21, 2006 01:12am | #12

            Unfortunately you can't do anything about that. Hopefully you can bid jobs for clients that don't look at rock bottom prices and want a quality job done. Or you can stay busy cleaning up after these POS.

            Hypothetically speaking of course, what happens when the POS guys figure out not to low-ball anymore. Will they get more jobs again?

             

            I am preparing to do a set of stairs as well.

            I am 100% totally against the typical round wooden balusters look.

            I need something special, different. I am even considering the "Thomas Jefferson" look for my interior stairs

            So, not only is my experience nil, I want something out of the norm.

            Hope yours goes well and you get loads of work.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

             

            WWPD

          7. Framer | Oct 21, 2006 01:38am | #14

            >> Hypothetically speaking of course, what happens when the POS guys figure out not to low-ball anymore. Will they get more jobs again? <<I don't think that I'll worry about guys who are cutting baseboard corners with a wormdrives and caulking then staining figuring out how to raise their prices.Joe Carola

          8. Tomrocks21212 | Oct 21, 2006 01:42am | #16

            Maybe you want to try something like this.... I made the newels and caps out of 1x, the rest of the rail was made using exterior railing pieces. The homeowner wanted something different, but fairly inexpensive. Too bad the bottom tread is a bullnose, doesn't look right with the rest of it.

          9. User avater
            Sailfish | Oct 21, 2006 04:15pm | #23

            Very nice.

            That is along the lines of the "thomas Jefferson" {FHB #180 pg 76} look I was implying.

            You took it to a different level!

            Thanks.

            I'm going to keep your pics on my HD for reference when I make the final design (if you are ok with that?)

             

            Thanks again!-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

             

            WWPD

          10. Tomrocks21212 | Oct 21, 2006 06:35pm | #28

            You're welcome to use it. As long as each piece is marked with my name and I can maintain archtectural control over the rail.
            Seriously, go ahead. Just a couple of tips and thoughts...First, cut a bunch of pieces 3 7/8", or whatever your stair code dictates for spacing.They're placed 12" OC on this one, 15" might look good if the panels are larger.
            The 2 things that drive this design are the vertical panel dividers, and the diagonals.
            I think the grid would have lookd better if I'd aligned the short pieces vertically, instead I pulled 6" centers and used every other one.
            My bottom rail had a sloped top (it was meant for outside use). Since my saw tilted the wrong way to make the bottom cuts, I had to make up a jig for the table saw. If you have the same situation, consider making up the panels as units, then using a circular saw to cut the bevel, or run the rail through the table saw and get rid of the bevel completely.
            Make sure you use baluster stock with a square corners, or you'll have to fill where the shorts butt into the longs.

          11. nikkiwood | Oct 21, 2006 05:52pm | #25

            Nice.........How did you attach the bottom Newell post? From the pic it seems anchored to the floor, but not to the riser.********************************************************
            "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

            John Wooden 1910-

          12. Tomrocks21212 | Oct 21, 2006 06:17pm | #26

            The part of the newel that you see is just a sleeve. I cut a square hole through the tread (the newel outside dimension less about 1 3/8"), flushed up to the inside of the riser. The inner part of the newel was dropped in that hole and plumbed by shims and screws through the riser face (and then plugged). I poured a little fiberglass resin in to anchor it to the subfloor. Then the outer skin was dropped on and secured with 15 ga. gun nails. So the whole thing is made from 1x, constructed like a box within a box.Or maybe I just toenailed the newel down to the riser?

          13. nikkiwood | Oct 21, 2006 06:33pm | #27

            Thanks.I went back and looked at the pic again, and now I see you attached the Newell to the first step. When I first looked, it seemed as though it was directly on the floor (with a space between the Newell and the riser).********************************************************
            "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

            John Wooden 1910-

          14. stevent1 | Oct 22, 2006 09:29pm | #34

            That is nice work.

            I built a set of Chippendale steps 20 years ago in a 1780's home in Lewes DE.

            View Image

             

            Chuck S
            live, work, build, ...better with wood

          15. Tomrocks21212 | Oct 23, 2006 03:30am | #36

            You know, when the homeowner described to me what she wanted, I drew up a rail almost identical to yours! She wasn't too keen on it, brought me a piece of an old garden gate that she liked, I modified it for aesthetics and to meet code, and came up with the one you saw in my pic.

      2. User avater
        harryhandsaw | Oct 21, 2006 06:14am | #18

        Code here is also the same. I have attached a diagram of how to calculate the heights
        Harry
        http://www.holtzheritage.com

        File format
      3. User avater
        harryhandsaw | Oct 21, 2006 06:20am | #19

        Not sure if my first post went through
        The same standard applies here as well. I have attached a diagram of how to calc. the heightsHarryhttp://www.holtzheritage.com

        File format
        1. h8 2paint | Oct 21, 2006 07:47am | #22

          thanks, what program did you use to create this picture?  I don't know how to get it open.

          Tom

          1. nikkiwood | Oct 21, 2006 05:45pm | #24

            It's an Apple Works document; Here it is in Word, which you should be able to open:********************************************************
            "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

            John Wooden 1910-

            File format
    2. andy_engel | Oct 21, 2006 01:41am | #15

      The front face on the baluster should be in line withe the face of the risers. 

      That's not a bad starting place, but I violate that rule all the time if it makes the baluster heights work better. In twenty years of stair work, no one's ever complained. Andy

      "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein

      "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

  2. plumbbill | Oct 20, 2006 04:35pm | #5

    Cutting the ballusters to length is the easy part.

    The hard part is maintaining code spacing combined with asthetics since their landing on the treads verses a bottom rail.

    Ofcourse that depends on tread depth & uniformity.

    When asked why is there four engines on a 747------ "cause we couldn't fit six" a Boeing engineer

    1. h8 2paint | Oct 20, 2006 04:54pm | #9

      yeah, the end balusters land where they land, I will do the best I know how to make 'em look cool, but y'know, this is a new client, and he's dealt with amatuers throwing good money after bad and he's nervous.  these guys didn't get a good level on every tread, used a pin nailer to attatch the treads, some of them have gaps under them between the treads and the risers...I don't know how far back this guy wants me to undo before I start rebuilding, or if he just wants to get out of this place and start over in a "new" gut-rehab.  They did not put a bullnose on the exposed end of the treads, so they just sit there looking ugly (to me anyway), gaps here and there...think I will close up these gaps, plug any holes and then put in the balusters.  But then there's that time thing again. how far back should i go before I start rebuilding?

      double-edged saw, huh?

       

      Tom

      1. jrnbj | Oct 21, 2006 01:22am | #13

        They did not put a bullnose on the exposed end of the treads, so they just sit there looking ugly (to me anyway), gaps here and there..Hmmmm....
        Are you telling us this stair is open on one side, and doesn't have bullnose returns cut?And you are going to toe-nail the balusters into the treads?If thats so, I wouldn't be throwing too many stones at the framers, friend ;-)

        1. h8 2paint | Oct 21, 2006 07:42am | #21

          y'know, I took a cursory look at the stairs when  I was there with the client the other day.  This morning when  I got there and really looked over the staircase, the treads were 34" across, open on one side just like you thought.  Also found out that instead of this being a worlds fair house (+/- 1904-1910) it was originally a log cabin from the mid 1800s.  cu doesn't want to go historical, just show the old gal some respect as we update the bldg.  When  I put a level on the treads, they are an inch or so out of level across the tread.  so I took the staircase apart  & Started over completely.  good thing.  These guys had attatched the treads & risers with 16 gauge brad nails (like molding) they had attempted to level some by screwing 1/4 paneling to the wall side stringer & setting the tread on there.  what  I can tell, the remains of the original stringers are 1x. gonna take a helluva lot more than just balusters to fix this thing.  On a previous staircase restoration,  I worked with a true craftsman, took one apart and completely restored it, using as much of the original material as we could. turned out beautiful. The balusters on that one were "dovetailed into the treads with a seperate bullnose attatched on the end like a staple to close the tread.  might try that here.  lot of work no matter what I do. 

          Edited 10/21/2006 12:48 am ET by h8 2paint

          1. jrnbj | Oct 21, 2006 07:35pm | #30

            "The balusters on that one were "dovetailed into the treads with a seperate bullnose attatched on the end like a staple to close the tread. might try that here. lot of work no matter what I do. "OK I feel better now....you do know the right way to do it....(or at least the historically correct way ;-).....)

          2. Tomrocks21212 | Oct 21, 2006 07:45pm | #31

            That's the right way assuming that the baluster offset from the tread return joint is pretty much plumb down from the rail center. A little bit one way or the other wil work with a bit of notching of the baluster. But if the treads are too wide, installing them this way will create a gap between the bullnose and the baluster. Most new construction open stairs I've seen are too wide to use the old technique.

            Edited 10/21/2006 12:50 pm ET by Tomrocks21212

          3. jrnbj | Oct 22, 2006 03:47am | #32

            Well, not sure why the width of the treads makes any difference...you set the railing where it needs to go to work with the bull-nose return on the open end
            that said, IIRC, most "new" stairs have the bottoms of the balusters doweled into the treads...
            my point really was that toe-nailing them has not been, and never will be, right

          4. Tomrocks21212 | Oct 22, 2006 06:49pm | #33

            If the open end extends out too far, then the dovetail notch will be open, that was my point

          5. stevent1 | Oct 22, 2006 09:38pm | #35

            I built a set of contempoary stairs years ago that used dovetails. No nails at the dovetails. Yellow glue and wedges. Dovetail the treads before setting them. Dovetailed the balusters on the band saw. I would do it today if someone was willing to pay for it. Sorry about the pics but it was 1979.

            View Image

            Most upper end homes here us wrought iron with a wood rail.

            Dowelled balusters fails in most installations.

             

             

            Chuck S
            live, work, build, ...better with wood

          6. h8 2paint | Oct 23, 2006 06:09am | #37

            good looking work man, you're right, I'd do it too if someone was willing to pay for it.  I am going to give this house the best I can given the resources I have available to work with.  I saw a thread on this site where someone was getting $1200/sq for a roof job.  Cedar shake, permit, cleanup & all.  Please. Quote that price in the midwest & the client would call the police for attempted robbery.  Hey, don't get me wrong; it's great work if you can get it.

  3. Tomrocks21212 | Oct 21, 2006 02:05am | #17

    Often I'll get balusters with a square base, no dowel protruding. To lock them in better, I first find the centers of the baluster bottom, and use a 3/4" spade bit to scrape out a shallow hole. Then, after CAREFUL layout (check it 3 times)do the same to the stair treads. I take a 3/4" dowel, cut to about 1/2" long, and use it to lock the baluster to the tread, sing some glue. The length of the dowel and depths of the holes will take some fiddling with, but the idea is to get a dowel and glue in there with minimum up-and-down of the handrail. Typically at the top, they will either fit into a drilled hole or into a plow in the rail. That's often enough to keep them secure, with a bit of glue and a brad or two, but even better is when there's a fillet piece that fits in the plow between the spindles.
    But don't just toenail into the treads.

    1. hvtrimguy | Oct 21, 2006 06:45am | #20

      Just one more note, I did a rail on some site built stairs and never checked how consistant the overhang was. measured in from each step from the side that should have a bullnose return on it and when done they wavered a bit. next time I think I'll snal a line down the nosings and square back. a simple step that I overlooked and would have made the job come out nicer."it aint the work I mind,
      It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini

      1. Tomrocks21212 | Oct 21, 2006 07:27pm | #29

        Hard experience has taught me well. Yes, establishing a straight line is something that I've learned to do on every stair that I trim. If they're factory built, generally I'll just put a straightedge along the bullnose returns to check. But on site-builts, even ones that I put together, I always use a stringline. Also, the second thing I do is put 3" or so of blue tape on the treads, centered on the string, in line with the balusters. That way I can lay out, and do any corrections, on a sacrificial layer. After I know it's right, I drill right through the tape, and only peel it off when I'm ready to set balusters.

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