I’m a trim carpenter in the mpls area looking for advice on changing my company focus to just custom stair building and installation,how to get into that market,how much of a market is there , etc.
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Hi!Lecutter,
There is a very good market for handrail installation in the Maryland, Virginia and eastern PA. area. Most stair companys sub this work out to independent subcontractors.
Larry
Edited 3/24/2002 7:16:20 PM ET by Larry
Look up Larry Martin/ORLO over at JLC and he'll fill your plate, if you can stomach it
Excellence is its own reward!
Lecutter,
Piffin is right, excellence does have its own rewards! Sorry for trying to help you.
Larry
Larry:
One question. Are you by chance Larry Martin?
LECUTTER, We might have something in common. For about the last decade I have
been more of a trim contractor than any thing else although we refer to ourselves
as Architectural Woodworking Contractors (it puts a more "designed"
and "artistic" spin to the phrase Contractor than "trim"
does). While I've always installed stairs and railing it wasn't until about
five years ago that we actually started building them too.
Representing ourselves as "Stair & Railing Specialists" has been
a key plus, if not THE KEY PLUS to my company's service offerings. Not many
companies an do stair projects well. Even fewer curved stairs. And even fewer
curved railings. And even fewer than that railings with wreath turns.
Unlike a lot of stairbuilders we don't necessarily build the stairs we sell
and install. For the most part I've continued to buy straight run stairs from
local stairbuilding shops (just as I did when I was more of a GC) and have chosen
to specialize in curved stairs and even then we don't necessarily build them
ourselves either. I think building straight run stairs is just getting in to
what is basically another commodity market and I'd be competing against a lot
of other stairbuilding shops and a most of that would be price driven competition.
While we don't build straight run stairs what we do do is install them and we
do "stair projects". What I mean is we'll look at a project for a
potential client and spec it out. The outsource the box stair, newels, and balusters
to another shop and then essentially be the "Stair Installation Project
Managers". While I think we will always continue to outsource some production
of newels, and balusters we are now just getting started doing that ourselves
since what we do do ourselves is fabricate railings.
What I've said for straight run stairs pretty much holds true for curved stairs
too for the most part although we do produce some of them ourselves. Those would
be ones that are serpentine rather than radial curves or ones in remodeling
situations where they have to be templated to an already existing wall or condition.
In other words the more custom, exotic or difficult the installation is the
more likely we will build them ourselves the reason being that that way it's
convenient for us to go back and forth to the project venue to check dimensions
and perform test fittings. When the curved stair is pretty much straight forward
we'll sub out that part of the fabrication to various other curved stair shops
around the nation. For instance we've installed curved stairs from: Arcways,
Staircase& Millwork Corporation
(aka Mr Stair), Woodsmiths
Design & Manufacturing ( which is the custom stair division of LJ Smith),
as well as two other small shops up in Maine.
A couple of years ago on one stair & railing project I had to work closely
with a local ironwork shop and since we both had project capabilities that the
other desired, could use, and could market. We've partnered on several projects
since then and are working on business plans now to take us to the next level.
We're getting set to really develop and market our joint venture to more builders
as well as architects, designers and homeowners. If you can find an ironwork
shop to partner with too I would highly recommend it too since one of the things
that I've heard my GC clients say while they can find wood stair contractors
and iron stair contractors finding a company that does both well is their problem.
That brings up a question I had and was thinking of bringing up anyway in these
forums here. Since I know there are other stairbuilders hanging out here on
BreakTime I was wondering as I get set to market and advertise my own business
more widely and extensivelyWho buys stairs? Or should I ask who buys stair
and railing projects. The bulk of our work stair & railing projects
are for general contractors but I was wondering if other stairbuilders have
a different experience. How may stairbuilders sell their projects directly to
homeowners? If you are selling to homeowners just how do they find and/or select
you?
Shift Click on Discussions to Open Them in
a New Window!
(It make them really easy to read just like the
old days)
"None of us
is as smart as all of us."- Warren
Bennis
Jerrald:
I build and sell cirved stairways to contractors and homeowners all the time. I am a small shop with just myself, my wife part-time, and occasion part-time help.
Word of mouth is my main advertising. I take care of my customers, do what I promise, and making them happy sells more stairs. I stick with the upper-end clientel. and rich people have rich friends. It has worked very well for me. I have several stairs going all the time. and presently have 8 stairs at various stages in my shop.
Yeah Stan but I'm wondering things like
What's typically the the percentage or ratio of contractors to homeowners
for other stairbuilders?
Who are better (more profitable) customers or clients? And why?
How does the word-of-mouth mechanism work with homeowners? It's not like
homeowners do a lot of stair remodeling and recommend contractors to each
other like they do Kitchen & Bath Contractors.
Do you solicit work from architects and designers and if you do how does
that work out. Are you just fabricating and installing the project or do you
get involved as a design consultant too
What kind of software do you use to design or produce working drawings
Re:" I stick with the upper-end clientele. and rich
people have rich friends." That's my mode too. More often than not
I'm not the first Stair & Railing guy to look at a project and I get the
ones that the other shops decline. The wealthy clients want what they want and
they're willing to pay for it just so long as you can come through for them.
So Stan what do you do for client who want metal balustrades? I'm thinking
something like that might help LECUTTER out.
Also what do you (and anybody else) think it takes to "tool up" a
stairbuilding shop.
I had planned to asked these kind of questions her myself and I had held off
because I wanted to take the time to phrase them out better. But then Taunton
changed the way things worked around here and LECUTTER beat me to the punch.Forum hint:
Shift Click on Discussions to Open Them in
a New Window!
(It make them really easy to read just like the
old days)
"None of us
is as smart as all of us."- Warren
Bennis
Jerrald:
Customer/client? I consider them the same. I will charge the same to a contractor as I do a client.
Rich clients have rich friends, and they talk in their circle of people. Occasionally one decides to build and I will have a good chance of getting a call.
Also, when I name prominent people that everyone in my area knows, that goes a long way in selling themselves.
I invite propective clients, and contractors to my shop when I have a curved stairway setup. They sell themselves, especially when I point out how I pocketscrew the risers to the tread, the tread returns to the treads, the wedged tread and riser construction, plus all the little things I try to do to that make them want me to build their stair.
I buy the metal balusters, and have an iron wright on call to handle any wrought iron railing.
If you have a passion for your work, you will not have to "act" like you enjoy your work.
Stan,
I am a trimmer in Texas. I do a lot of stairs. I work for both builders and home owners. The difference between the two is similar to the difference between retail and wholesale. Builders already know what they want and what I have to offer, it is just a mater of time and money. With home owners I have to spend more time working with them and fixing their designs. I try to always exceed my client/customer's expectations. My business is 100% referral.
Greg
Greg:
Sounds good. Personally...I would just as soon deal directly with the clients themselves. They are the one that are going to be looking and climbing their stairway, and by dealing with them directly, there are no surprises.
Occasionally when I deal with the contractor...they many times do not describe the details of the stairs.
I almost insist that I talk with the clients in person. One problem that some contractors have with that is that if say the stairs is $16000,,,they will try to make 4 or 5000 dollars on top of that. They dont want any prices discussed. I always ask the contractor first about this so as not put him in an embarrasing situation.
For what it's worth, I entered this form over a year an half ago in good faith. Since that time not only my reputation but integrity has been destroyed by false accusations that have led to not only threatening of my family but also myself. These false accusations have been orchestrated by two different screen name's that are in this discussion Gunner and Piffin. Both of these two are not only liar's but also coward's at heart. As a veteran who served my country I've been spit on by both of them not only in defending false accusations, but down right being accuse that I've threaten to murderer someone. Anyone is certainly entitled to their own opinions, these two have not only disgraced themselves but everyone around them.
Larry Martin
[email protected]
[email protected]
From: Gunner Feb-26 7:54 pm
To: Qtrmeg (222 of 232)
27633.222 in reply to 27633.204 I see what your saying Qtrmeg. He hasn't implied murdering a fellow poster or their child in a week. We'll let him start over. Here Larry, it's your rope run with it. Do what you do.
N
W < O > E
S Bobcat
Now let's see if I've got this right, you've never spend one day in the military and don't have any children your willing to sacrifice , but want others to fight because your afraid.
Bobcat aka martin
I fail to see the point of your post other than the mindless vile whinnings of someone who is drowning in ego infested waters.
You have no right to launch such a personal attack as you have on Piffin and Gunner.
You have a delete button, I suggest that you use it to remove your pathetic attempt at attacking people you don't know.
You are not welcomed here.
Gabe
Jerrald:
I forgot to answer your question about what it takes to tool up a shop.
I probably have the least amount of tools for a curved stairshop.
Here is my list.....basic 10 inch table saw
8 inch jointer
20 inch planer
3 horse router
electric drills
disc sander
708 DeWalt miter box
jigsaw
beltsander
a few hand tools....and that is it.
No bandsaw...though I would like to have one
no lathe
no shaper
no cnc stuff
Stan great list. It shows it doens't necessarily take a lot of tools to get
going.
When I said earlier "Customer/client" I was putting it out there
like that since to me it's two words/same meaning.
re: "Also, when I name prominent people that everyone
in my area knows, that goes a long way in selling themselves." I've
got a few clients that everyone knows who they are and by that I do mean everyone
but in many cases I can't mention who they are becuse to do so would be invading
their privacy and violate our relationship in some cases. I had one client the
other week who while very proinenent is not too well known but they asked me
that the reference pictures I was taking never be publish or used outside of
my company.
I only say this to add it as a potential caution. I know the story of a local
plumber who did some work on the mother of a very famous pop singers house and
when he was there photgraphed pictures on the wall and then told everybody about
it. He ended up costing his boss all the work for that buidler that he did for
the pop singer and her mother and may have very well lost his job because of
it too.
I think word of mouth is essential and probably the most important avenue of
marketing to cultivate and develop to sustain a business. However if you want
to really grow (like I do right now) waiting for just word of mouth to develop
can be like waiting for ice to melt. You can see it happening but boy does it
take a long time. That's why I'm intersted in hearing what other stairbuilders have
to say about marketing their services or products.
In fact that's a good question too. Is it a product or a service and what's
the difference?
Regarding tooling I thought I remembered you once wrote about your forms and
how you set them up and what you did for clamping assemblies. Jigs too. I know
I saved those old BreakTime forum essays you had written on on that stuff on
my hard drive but rather than look for them now I'll wait until the archives
get transfered over here to the new system.
I also know Larry had a good tool list for a railing installers set up even
though we don't do it quite his way it's still a good list. I'll try and put
together our list tomorrow.Forum hint:
Shift Click on Discussions to Open Them in
a New Window!
(It make them really easy to read just like the
old days)
""The
reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in
trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the
unreasonable man." -George Bernard
Shaw"
Jerrald:
As you know I am just a little mom and pop company. I turn away stairs the way it is.
However, about two months ago I had a trouble getting some material to work with.
I had all this work to do, but no supplies. So I just thought I would go out and see
what was going on near some bigger cities. I printed up some brochures and went
out to do some sales. To make a long story short, after three days of cruising
around, I had picked up 2 curved stairs, and possibly another one.
I remember mentioning to my wife what it would be like if all I did was hit the road
and sell stairways. There is a ton of work out there!
I chose to stay small and I am enjoying it. I am not a paper shuffler and I know
I would not enjoy managing a larger company. I have to have my hands on every
step....no pun. ha
Oh, about Larry Martin...he is one fine rail installer, has invented some neat tools
to ease the installation. He has a little bit of an attitude problem towards other
methods.
Stan,
That's not true about me having a attitude toward the way others install and I certainly don't want to give anyone the impression that I'm a know it all, because that's not the case. I just started out on these forums the wrong way a few months back, and haven't been able to turn it around. Anyway thanks you for mentioning that I invented tools for this type of work.
Larry Martin
Larry:
You have lots to contribute......I am here to learn
Stan,
I believe we both have something to contribute and can learn from each other. Also I believe it is important for you and I to try and get alone. I will be the first to admit publicly that I created my own problems with you. Maybe one of the reason for that is, I do business with a lot of different stair companys. I don't know for sure, but something I learned a long time ago is. Normally mixing Stair companys (builders) and carpenters is like mixing vinegar an oil. Anyway with that said,hopefully we can make this a learning and interesting subject for everyone
best of wishes
Larry
Edited 3/26/2002 5:13:52 PM ET by Larry
Larry:
A sincere handshake to you.
Hey, are you still running a lot of railing? I would like to see more pictures.
Stan,
To answer your question about installing. Yes, to much.
This is a picture of an install that I did right after Christmas this year
Larry
Larry:
That is real nice work! Send more.
Stan and Larry:
My thanks and appreciation for both of your gentleman-ly-ness (if that is a word). I may only speak for myself, but it sure is refreshing.
I look forward to learning more from both of you.
Jason
Jason:
Thanks: Larry and I just completely got off to a bad start....then it escalated and just got out of control. Its history and we are friends now.
Larry is one heck of a rail installer, and I am trying to figure out how he does it so efficiently. If Larry held a seminar close by ....I would sign up.
He also has some real cool inventions. The guy has to be very sharp to figure out those tools.
So, Stan, you and Larry are actually getting along?!!!
That's awesome. Life is too short to have enemies.
blue
Hi ! Jason dd,
Stan was right, I believe we both are going to made a good effort to become friend. Earlier I pointed out that in my opinion, mixing Stair builders and carpenter is like vinegar an oil. From want I can see in Stan pictures he is a excellent craftsmen and stair builder,most carpenters do not achieve this level of quality. I've also noticed that we have another thing in common, guns. So I'm looking forward to some great discussions in the future.
Hi! Blue
Larry
Vinegar or Oil???
One of the things I've noticed in the fourteen years of specializing in handrail installation, working with different stair companys, builders and trim carpenter sub-contractors also personally knowing over 20 people who specialize in this area, is the different approach in and to their work. Also the level of quality and perfection that goes into their work. I've noticed that installers that had originally come out of a stair company shop, normally reach a higher level of of quality and close to perfection and they also work a lot slower with in my opinion virtually no carpentry skills. I personally believe they are called craftsmen and artist. I've noticed just the opposite approach to this type of work with someone with a strong background in home building ,rough and trim carpentry. For example. I noticed a black powder gun that Stan had made that has a tremendous amount of quality and perfection to the point of excellence. most carpenters I know would not have the patience to achieve this level of quality.
I would like others opinion on this and I don't want to offend anyone.
Larry
Larry:
Thanks for the comments. Installing the handrail is a small portion of my work, but it one area I could get more efficient at.
Did you ever hire some help? Also, are you looking to another boom year where you are at? Best wishes for 2002 and beyond.
I don't know how I missed this thread, maybe I was just to busy locking horns with the anti gun extremist.
So here's my two cents worth.
I live in a rural area, the closest city of any real size is 4 hours away. I have made a decent living building custom stairs and architectural woodwork for the last 30 plus years. If I can do it here anybody can do it near a large city.
Advertising, never used it. had a yellow pages listing didn't get me anything. Word of mouth is all I ever used. I did get a fair amount of exposure from several magazine articles but by and large word of mouth is it. Most of my jobs are client requested, they see my work elsewhere and tell their builder they want me to do the project. I do have 2 contractors and one architect that go out of their way to use my stuff. The key is quality work, I bid against Arcways on a regular basis and beat their price hands down, so price is not an issue for me but still the competition is rather stiff when you look at the small amount of high end work available in my area. So I have had to offer options no one else wants to fool with. All of my projects are one of a kind, no two alike. the only parts I buy are turnings everything else is made from scratch, bending rail, fittings, stringers including book matched veneers. My stairs are all prefinished, knocked down and reinstalled on the job site. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm better, just a different approach that works very well for me.
In the course of the year or so that I have been hanging around this site I have picked up a wealth of info, Stan offers a lot of photos and tips that make my already enjoyable job just that much better. and more efficient. My methods by comparison are some what unorthodox. I just picked up a digital camera so I will post my home brewed version over time, maybe helping spur someone else's imagination to post what they know.
Armin:
Hey, you have some jigs I am still scratching my head about.
Its kind of neat how everyone does the same job in different ways. No way is particularly better except to the one that is used to it.
I am going to post more pictures as soon as we get more mebabytes.
I would like to basically repost several of the stairs that was on the old Breaktime..and just relabel them. I am sure you constantly get e-mails from people wanting to see pictures. I must have 150 stored in my laptop.
Stan,
My wife works with me on fridays and yes it looks like a another good year.
Hi ! Armin a.k.a. The Laminator
If you don't mine I would like to ask a question about your area. Does this area have any company that manufacturer pre built stairs ? Also did I misunderstand you, are you building the stair in a shop?
The reason I ask about your area is because in DC area we have within a hundred mi. radius atlest 7 very large stair manufacturer, that's not counting the several custom shops like Stan that I can think of. Just to give you a idea of the size of these companys.The third largest in this area does over 13 million dollars a year in box, open, curves and stair parts with a hundred an twenty employees and nine fulltime rail installer.That's just one company.
Larry
Larry:
I am 100 miles soutH of Chicago, and there are several huge stair shops up there.
About 3 or 4 do more that 1000 curved stairs a year. I bid against them once in awhile, but mostly stay around the Champaign/Bloomington Il area.
Larry....jsut curious...roughly how many feet of rail do you run in a year? I know it is a lot. If I remember right , you just have your wife helping ? My wife works in my shop about 2 days a week. Sometimes, every other week. I am very layed back about my work. I am really enjoying it.
I have a curved stairway that I had posted some pictures under "104 degree stairway"
I finally got some answers on wood species, and am now putting the treads in. I will post some pictures maybe tomorrow. But to do so, I will have to delete everything again.
I haven't quite got a handle on this new format, but it seems to helping everybody make nice, so count me in. As a trim carpenter who does stairs because it's part of the job, I guess I'm the vinegar. You all have intrigued me with the stair speciality thing. Especially the shop-built stuff...how big a space do youse have?. Stan's tool list was helpful, and I've seen Larry's site, but how 'bout anybody else. I don't know of any custom stairbuilders in this area (and there's a lot of expensive building)I'd also love some more clues to service this market, or create it...
Bucksnort:
My shop is 28 x 36 with a 20 x 28 wing. I have an 8/12 pitch roof with a 4/12 interior ceiling that is 13 feet plus in the peak. I can set up three curved stairways at a time and have a couple of straight ones going as well.
Stan, thanks for the sizes. Since I've only done site-built on existing conditions for both curved and straight runs, there's no way to rout treads and risers into stingers, do you do that in the shop? If so, how? All you guys, I'm looking for a new direction, and this thread has been very helpful, thanks..
While I know how much it takes to come up with prices, would anyone share a 118" rise straight run, one side open, single volute,maple tread, painted riser, shop built price? I just want to know if it's worth checking this out.
Armin,while you know I take issue with your poltics, your stairs are something else. Very nice. How did you do the curved downeasing. Simple, yet elegant, so much smoother than a gooseneck...if I can get the work, will you guys make the parts?
Whacha mean by "single volute"? I seems like ya wanna know the stair but no railing or balustrade from your question and a volute is a railing part. Anyway that's not really a stair we would necessarily build unless we had some idle time to use up. I would probably order it from another near by shop.
I'll look up the numbers on it tomorrow though of what we would charge if we did ourselves. Bear in mind BB, I in Westchester County NY and the dollar numbers here are sometimes twice what they are for other parts of the country. What's really a more important and valuable figure is how may ManHours does it take. With that number you can then multiply that by your own hourly rate and have a more accurate price for your region. As for the materials cost that may vary a liitle too but realtivly little to the labor price for fabrication.
Forum hint:
Shift Click on Discussions to
Open Them in a New Window!
""The
reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in
trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the
unreasonable man." -George Bernard
Shaw"
Jerrald, I guess I should have been more specific...a single volute on the 1st fl w/ starting rounded tread and painted riser, w/ birdcage balusters on the first tread, tying into a handrail w/ 2 painted balusters per tread leading to a second floor and ending thence. I don't have this set of stairs to build or even out to bid. I know they're simple,and, if you were subbing to a stairshop, materials would be part of the price. I'm intersted in being that stairshop, what would you be paying is the question. For those that make 'em I'm wondering what you're charging? I've been in construction since'62, call me a slow learner...but I'm hanging in there...
BB
Bucksnort, Don't take my politics to seriously, , we may disagree at times but we are all friends here.
I would be interested in making the parts, currently I have a web designer working on a site for me, hopeing to sell some unique stair parts nation wide that I developed over the years. Web page be should be out end of April.
I'll see if I can locate some pictures on making the turnouts, I also have some shots of a routing jig for stringers, will post sometime this weekend.
Photos below of two Victorian columns I completed yesterday, We built the stairs several years ago and the client gave us the contract to finish the parlor ceiling as well as the archway. I milled the staves for the column on a Bill & Hussey moulder, 1/4 sawn red oak, the little beads on the trim ring were a challange, years ago I purshased a small hand operated 3 axis router, while on my 3rd beer I came up with a jig to make the beads that turned out to be quite simple.
Edited 3/29/2002 3:39:00 PM ET by Armin a.k.a. The Laminator
Edited 3/29/2002 3:50:25 PM ET by Armin a.k.a. The Laminator
Forgot to add the detail shot of top section of column.
Armin,
Very nice work!
Here's something everyone will get a good laugh out of. This is a picture of a level that I invented several years ago for marking 4 balusters with only having to pum up one-time. This thing actually worked but wasn't practical.If you noticed there is a level in the top portion of the one piece and a 3 1/2"starting point at the bottom.
Larry
This is a picture of the same level with more features. Actually these pictures are over seven years old.
Larry
Larry:
I like the creativity in your tools. That took a lot of thinking.
Armin:
More flawless work you just posted.
I do my drawings in VectorWorks 8.5.1 and I’m about to upgrade to VectorWorks, 9.5 Architect but I’m interested in what you other guys do to design and produce working drawing. Also do you ever find that either the work you do or the municipality you are working in requires drawings provided by a consulting engineer?
Bucksnort, Sorry but I completely forgot about looking up the data for you regarding that stair you asked about. I’m going back in to the shop tomorrow morning and this time I wrote a note to myself to check for it so I’ll have it tomorrow
Forum hint:
Shift Click on Discussions to
Open Them in a New Window!
""The
reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in
trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the
unreasonable man." -George Bernard
Shaw"
Thanks Stan, I was trying to eliminate the amount of steps needed for installation.For example, on a typical stair case a carpenter will normally make over 150 layout marks.
Larry
Larry,
I was trying to eliminate the amount of steps needed
OK, just don't eliminate any of the treads needed.
Armin,
If someone does that then I'll be out of work. I like to work on tools and techiques that make the installation process more easier but also maintain accuracy. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't . The baluster level was just an idea I came up with one day so I decided to make one to see how practical it was . The problem was there are too many different degrees in the run to make it universal for any stair rail. Anyway I thought you might want to see it. I have some othere ideas I will share with the forum at a later time.
Larry
Edited 3/30/2002 9:21:18 PM ET by Larry
Hey Stan, thanks for hanging on and hanging in. How are yer peepers doin'? Everything okay still? Cheers, Phil.If it is to be, 'twil be done by me..
Philter:
I went to the optometrist yesterday and I am now seeing 20/25. I was originally 20/400.....day after lasik 20/40 .......week after lasik still 20/40 and now 20/25. I knew I was improving the last two weeks. In two months I can go in for an enhancement to get me to 20/20 if it hasnt arrived at those figures by then.
Larry,
Yes I prefab everything in my shop, I built a high bay on one end to accommodate the forms. Also built a separate building for a finishing room large enough to spray all the parts.
I live in Northern Michigan about 50 miles east of Marquette. it's pretty rural although in the last 10 years the high end market really took off, I have not worked on a house under $400.000. The closest major stair shop is about 6 hours away past that you get into Stans neck of the woods. In fact it was the remoteness from major shops that got me started in building stairs. For many years I did design build, couldn't get service or quality worth a dam so I started to build my own. After I built five of them I got enough word of mouth business to drop the general contracting headache.
Because I build everything from scratch I need more machines than most, for me machines are also my toys so I guess the cost is justified in my mind at least. You mentioned iron balusters, the photo shows a cherry, birdseye, and iron project.
Armin, once upon a time in the old days of BreakTime was it you that posted some kind of jig or contraption that you would use to shape those helical turn pieces like you have in the Weiss stairs you just posted ?
Forum hint:
Shift Click on Discussions to
Open Them in a New Window!
""The
reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in
trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the
unreasonable man." -George Bernard
Shaw"
Larry, yes that's one of my home brewed fixtures. I always wanted to build a steel version in conjunction with a small air router to rough in the shapes. As it is I use an angle grinder fitted with a custom carbide wheel. Works really well but not all that cost effective. I am working on a baluster- rail drilling gadget that I'm sure you guys will get some serious use from.
I've spent the last couple nights reading the response to my initial question and just wanted to say thanks for everyones input its been helpful . I hope to continue learning from everyone . I was also wondering where to find any of these tools any of you guys have made. Thanks
Lecutter:
What ever jig you need....I am sure someone here has made it.
As for myself.... ask about any of the following:
I am a nut on jigs for mortising stair stringers, scarf joints, baluster bolt jigs, swoop miter jigs, riser bracket jigs, rail bending jigs, stringer jigs, elliptical layout jig,
baluster measuring tool, rabbet miter jig. etc. etc.
Armin has the most clever router jigs for doing tight curved railing. I cant wait to do another stairway with a tight radius rail.
Armin also has all kinds of neat ideas. too numerous to mention right now
Larry has some ingenious handrail tools that he has patents on. He probably runs more rail in a year than I will in a lifetime. He also has a neat workstation setup that you may want to ask to see.
Jerrald has a lot of stuff....I am just not aware of all his techniques, but I have no doubt they are top of the line.
Allen Schell has posted some nice stuff and I am sure he has ideas of jigs.
There are several others that I am failing to mention , but we all have various jigs and pet gadgets.
Well it's not a jig but a really neat router I plan to buy as soon a I get
the next project that can justify it's $2800 price tag. I'm actually getting
it to replace the jigs and set-ups I go through at times shaping helical curved
railings ( I don't or haven't done any bending rail projects in years which
was why I asked Larry earlier if that was solid rail in one of his photos or
not).
Scheer
508 Handrail Router
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unreasonable man." -George Bernard
Shaw"
Jerrald:
WOW! That is a nice tool. I plead ignorance on that machine. I am interested in knowing more about it. I could see me using that all the time.
Now I feel like I am "tool" challenged. ha Please elaborate furhter.. like maybe a website that I can read about it. Thanks
Yup, I can see that thang as very helpful, I could've used it to follow the framing on most of the houses I've trimmed.
How do you get those down/up easings roughed out fair enough to run that rig on them?
Stan,
To try and answer your question about how much rail I run a year would be impossible. In a normal week I will install two to five different job, sometime less. A typical job for me is approximately 5 newels 100 balusters. It really depend on the type of installation I'm doing. One day I might be working on a production site doing a very simple installation, and the next day be working in a three million dollar custom home. I don't price my work by how much rail I run. This depend on who I'm working at the time.For example if I'm working for a stair company this is always a set price. I only has to decide weather or not I want the job. I've done enough to know exactly how long it will take within a hour or so.A custom job normally I can project the time needed within 1/2 day. This can only come with experience. Also I never work by the hour only fixed prices.
Hi !Billy,
I believe you and I are both in the same boat about being the vinegar here, hopefully by adding a little oil to the machine will all end up with a different approach. Maybe we can get Blue or someone else to do it if becomes necessary.
Armin,
If you don't mine please tell me a little more about "rail drilling gadget" that your working on. I'm attaching a picture of a clamp that I use for bending rail, and I only need a wrench to make it work. One of these days when I have all Blue money I'm going to try and bring it to market.
Blue,
Just having some fun.
This subject is growing so fast, I can't keep up with the posting. By the time I write something its out he dated
Larry
E&R System Technik (http://www.ersystech.com)
is actually where I found the Scheer Handrail Router and they have a buch or
other stuff. The site doens't seem to be working this evening when I just checked
but I posted the link anyway in case it comes back online again soon. There's
nothing really to see on the site however, what you really need to do is call
and ask for their catalog. There are whole buch of router systems for ploughing
out curved stringers that you might be interested in oneday too. Call 413-827-7600
(Springfield, Mass) to ask
They also have what looks like a neat drilling and boring router for balusters.
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""The
reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in
trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the
unreasonable man." -George Bernard
Shaw"
Jerrald:
Thanks for the link. I am not one to spend much on equipment as I prefer to do it the "Necessity is the mother of invention" way. But I could see maybe owning that rail router someday. If it works on my costs versus benefits formulae......in other words...will I make money with it......I will buy it.
I know of a lot of the big machines as I go to large stair hatcheries in Chicago once in awhile. But I am just a small time operator, and I would not have near the passion if a machine was racing along cutting all my mortises in a minute, or a cnc machine cutting out my curved tread blanks. I still place high priority on hand-made......within reason of course ...If I built my stairways like I do my rifles...I would have been bankrupt by the third job.
In my area, it would be easy to keep a half dozen guys going, but thats not me. I am not sharp enough to keep the paperwork going correctly, I am maxed out just keeping my own straight.
Larry:
hmmmm......that has me thinking. I will post my rail glue up jigs if you promise you wont laugh. ha That looks like it would work nice.
Larry, if that's a Van Morrison Blue Money reference, I'm with you, brother...
Armin:
Once again....top notch work!
Hey, just wondering your method for attaching the iron balusters to the treads. I have an unorthodox way myself for attaching them. I may have posted in one other time on the old breaktime.
Edited 3/28/2002 8:04:46 PM ET by Stan Foster
Larry:
Look how united we all are now. We are going to "bend" the world.
Wth Larrys way, Armins way, Jerralds way, my way, look how many "correct" and different approaches we can chew on.
Edited 3/28/2002 8:16:13 PM ET by Stan Foster
Stan,
The iron balusters in the photos was for an unusual job. the client wanted a continuous handrail with no newel posts. The strength problem was further compounded by the fact they had an elderly parent living with them that literally leaned on the railing to pull herself up the stairs. So I came up with the following, sorry I don't have any photos. I laminate all my stringers on a plywood core 1 1/4 in. thick, the face is is bookmatched or one piece veneer resawn and finished to 1/8 thick. Before I laminate the face veneer in place I cut the notch for the treads and risers then I layout the location of the balusters on the tread portion of the stringer. The iron balusters are 5/8 stock ordered 4 inches longer than needed, for the time being forget about the baluster located near the front of the tread. At the location of the other two balusters I milled a dado with a router 5/8 x 5/8 x 4 1/2 inches (slightly oversized) deep to receive the iron baluster. Next I drilled a 3/8 clearance hole through the dado in order to screw into the side of the baluster with a 1/4-20 hex head bolt. The iron baluster is tapped to receive the bolt. Next I laminated the face veneer plus one layer of 1/8 in baltic birch plywood over the stringer.
The end result is the stairs are set in place, the iron balusters are dropped into the now 4 inch deep square holes in the stringer. Two balusters (one top one bottom) on each flight are bolted (through the back of the stringer) these two set the predetermined height of the railing The pre finished railing is set on the two balusters and pinned in place. After which the rest of the balusters are lifted up and positioned into their respective square holes in the railing and also pinned in place with a small brad. The final step is to insert all the bolts through the back of the stringer and tighten. The end result is the balusters are solid as a rock, one bolted mass of wood and steel. I'm sure there are some raised eyebrows out there and I'm sure there is a faster way but I would venture 20 years from now this railing will still be rock solid.
Armin: Captured balusters.....the ultimate way. Sounds like the brass baluster job I had to a few years ago. No newels..........had to epoxy iron rods inside the brass balusters and run them into the subfloor.
Nice rail installation Larry. Those belly curves look like solid rail not bending rail. What are they?Forum hint:
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""The
reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in
trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the
unreasonable man." -George Bernard
Shaw"
Jerry,
This is made of bending rail.Solid rail is something that I do not see very often.
Look at the top right hand corner of the picture through too the family room, at the cherry beams.This room alone had over a hundred thousand dollars in mill work. This was a two point eight million dollar model home in Northern Virginia. The builder plans to build 15 to 20 of these a year.
Larry
Ultimate Stair
Here is something that you might find interesting . One of the large stair manufacter in my area has invented what is called the ultimate stairs. This a stair that is shipped with the risers, stringers but with using a temporary plywood tread. After the steps are set to measuements are pulled that are put into a computer that give all the exact measurements for newel heights, rail drop, easing cuts and also where the balusters are to be placed. All this is precut in the shop including treads ,all drilling ,notching of newels and shipped to the jobsite . The only thing left to do for installation is remove the temporary treads and install the completely finished predrilled oak treads. This system takes literally no carpentry skill. This is something you will see other stair companies doing in the future.
Larry
Ultimate Stair, This system takes literally no carpentry skill.
Time to reach for the barf bag, there goes another fine speciality trade down the tubes.
Armin,
This stair and rail system been out about a year. If I wouldn't of seemed it with my own eyes I would have never believed it. I personal believe in the nexted several years, you'll see more large stair manufacturer going this way.
Larry
Larry:
Would you happen to have a link to a stair company that is supplying this service?
I know of several stair companies that supply "kits". The stringers come all mortised, the treads are all cut with returns. But the final fit is up to the installer.
It still takes a high level of experience to generate accurate numbers for the cnc equipment to start milling out the stairparts. These have to come from someone onsite. There are just too many variables.
I am confident that we stairbuilders will not be replaced with cnc equipment.
Also, I really believe that craftsman as yourself will always be needed to put all those parts together with skill and pride.
A similar example can be made with building handcrafted muzzleloaders. Sure, you can get cnc carved kits, reducing a lot of the hardwork, but no machine can put the fit and finish into these guns that a skilled hand can. Too many variables.
There will always be the need for people with skill to work through all these variables, and actually assemble the product.
Stan, I agree there will always be a demand for that signature piece, some people just want a custom built staircase (or whatever) that expresses the skills of the craftsman. As for using the kits you speak of, at some point in time a person has to come to the realization that the builders title has now been down graded from craftsman to parts installer. I hope this does't happen in my lifetime. Several years ago a client had me install a spiral kit. I spent more time trying to get everything to fit than the project was worth, on top of that when it was all said and done it looked like a kit. After another person commented how she could tell I built it, I decided never to do another one.
cherry beams
To night while I was cleaning off my desk I found a quote I had jotted down that relates to two of the questions I had asked earlier:
3. How does the word-of-mouth mechanism work with homeowners? It's not like homeowners do a lot of stair remodeling and recommend contractors to each other like they do Kitchen & Bath Contractors.
4. Do you solicit work from architects and designers and if you do how does that work out.
The quote:
Doing business without advertising is like winking at a girl in the dark... you know what you're doing, but nobody else does.--Stewart Britt
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""The
reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in
trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the
unreasonable man." -George Bernard
Shaw"
Jerry,
When I was in the boat business we used a percentage 2.5 of projected gross sales for setting up our yearly budget for advertising. Most of that money went into boat shows, because we were targeting a particular market.The business that I'm in today is similar only in the way of specializing and being able to target the people that are in need of my services. Today I don't spend any money for advertising, at least none to speak of.
Over the years I can't begin to tell you how many good jobs I picked up, just by dropping a business card off at a house while in the framing stages. Always leading the card on the stairway, wow driving home from work or going to another job site. Once and a while I would spend a hold day doing nothing but this, always generating work. Sometime I would pick a day that my wife would be off work so we could spend it together.
Anyone who doesn't like to work alone most of the time and depend only their own abilities, then probably my line of work is not for them .
Larry
For all the newbies who might have read this thread and are now confused over what this is all about, the person who originally participated in this thread as Larry had been previously banned as Larry Martin and as Lmartin for misbehaviour. He has since been banned againa several times and is now psoting the previous two under the screenname of bobcat. Bobcat is registered as
Cleaner8 and jukebox15
in the previous two posts.
He has to keep using different names because he keeps getting banned. at least some of those names are from stolen emails. He is here illegally. His attempt to brand me a liar is his vain and misguided attempt to re-direct blame for his own behaviour.
Sorry he may have confused you with his sudden interuption and name change. In spite of his great amt of experience with handrails, he appears to be going up the down staircase.
Excellence is its own reward!
I just hate the fact that it is in every thread that I am trying to read!!!!!
It is annoying!!!!
What I really hate is that he did it on Friday evening, when he knows there will be no one in the office for two days to clean up his mess.
Thanks for explaining...haven't been here for a few months as things have been really busy...I stop i to see what's up and wonder what this crap is....The greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. RWEmerson
Just a crazy hill billy vendetta thing. He imagines that I've don ehim wrong so he needs to poluute the whole board and that is somehow supposed to get him his reputation back. As of last check, he has used twelve identities since february 25
Expect the weekend to be muddy here.
Excellence is its own reward!
My wife was walking by and peered over my shoulder at the posts, and even went "What the #$@!???"
I just shrugged. :)The greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. RWEmerson