I am building stairs from the second floor to the first. My question is this – coming down from the second floor how far back should the riser be on the landing from the 45 degree turn to go down the second string to the first floor. The rise is 7 1/4″ and the run is 10 1/8″ to the end of the bull nose of the stair.
Thanks for any insight into this matter.
Donny D.
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Replies
Maybe we could clarify a bit first. Your run is different than your tread size. Since you say it is 10-1/8" to edge of bull, that would be the tread. The run isw the cut layout in the stringer - tread minus overhang.???
second, most landings do you a 90° turn.
so not sure I understand all what you say - but you need a minimum of 6'8" headroom from finished cieling to edge of tread, verticle. 7'2" to 7'4" is much more comfortable
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Sorry about the confusion.
The tread is 10 1/8"
The turn is 90 degrees
I am not concered about the head room because it is a 2 story well.
If I have a square landing and the string of stairs from the second floor runs down to the landing - running South - and then turn East onto the second run of stairs.
What kind of a distance do I need to be from the East wall to my riser. Do I need to match the distance of 10 1/8"?
My landing measures 36" x 36 "
donny, are you asking if you should extend the landing with a tread at the same level?
Or does the tread width have to be the same on both sets of stairs?
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 12/21/2004 5:47 pm ET by calvin
Just to throw a bug in your project the new national code requirements state no larger than 7 inch rise anymore. lol
....Thats gonna open some eyes
I don't have it in front of me since I no longer have to build stairs but doesn't it also address a new run or tread length as well?
I believe the rise and run will come to the same total as always, they are just trying to restrict height so that there are less trip accidents- I would assume.
I have to question the old rule of thumb about rise + run totalling the same. That means stair angle changes when it should stay within the 30-35 degree range that is comfortable for people. Surely increasing riser height should be matched with a proportional increase in unit run as well. Of course I realise this isn't always possible due to space constraints, but I always try to do it in the stairs I build.
WallyLignum est bonum.
I've found the opposite. As the rise increases, the run should decrease, and as the run increases, the rise should decrease. Sounds counterintuitive, but think about a ladder, or conversely, about outdoor sidewalks with 4 in. risers. Of course, you have to stay within the bounds of the code with new work, but I've been on some old stairs that had a rise of probably 10 in., and a run of perhaps 6 in., and found them to provide reasonable access to a seldom used space. At least as important as the ratio of rise and run is consistency.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
"As the rise increases, the run should decrease"
Andy, this just steepens the staircase - if taken too far, the stairs will be difficult to use. Sure, it's a product of the old rise+run=17" rule, but it runs counter to what humans have become used to in stairs. Between 30 and 35 degrees is comfortable and can be used effortlessly. Above or below that range, people find they have to take more care to negotiate the stair safely. The size of the modern western foot demands a minimum tread of 10". Now that we have inexpensive calculators it is easy to check the slope of the stairs rather than relying on a rule of thumb that doesn't take account of basic ergonomics.
As I noted, there are times when it is difficult to provide access to spaces without going beyond this range of comfortable slopes, but those should be rare exceptions. Perhaps a hinged ladder would be a better option for attic access - at least it is recognized as a ladder and not masquerading as a staircase.
Wally
Lignum est bonum.
sly... a good demonstration of what andy says is in Arch Graphic Standards.. and in fact as the rise increases ... the run does decrease..
edit:
naturally .. the illustration is showing ALL potential stairs.. and of course the steep ones will not conform to code nor comfort...
but it still remains true . the greater the rise, the lesser the run
they have a good graphic in the section on stairs
donny... as long as you are not talking about "winders".. ie:
your first run ends at a platform.. say 38" x 38".. then you turn left and start on the 2d run..
that inside corner can be developed almost any way you want.. the easiest is to hold the first riser back so everything is "housed" between the two walls
or if you like playing with trim and nosings .. you can let the nosing peek around the corner and set the riser flush..
or as mentioned above, you can set a newel on the inside corner and let the bottom run die into it going up and the top run die into it comming down..
keep in mind that most codes now require a handrail on the inside corner and that it be continuous... lot's of fun
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 12/23/2004 12:32 am ET by Mike Smith
Well Mike it looks like I have some reading to do, and I'll be hitting the library rather than the Boxing Day sales. But I stick by my original premise - that general use stairs should stay in the 30-35 degree slope range. Yes it is possible to go steeper or flatter, but that should be the exception, not the rule. Within the ideal range, most people can use them without touching the handrails or looking at their feet. That's what we want in a staircase.
WallyLignum est bonum.
And if you check the ratio of the rise and run on an attic ladder, it's not too far off the old formula. I'm not advocating increcibly steep stairs for everyday use (although I am a fan of the 8 1/4 in. rise, 9 in. run standard), just noting that the ratio can work in surprising ways.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Andy, I prefer the 9'' run too.
Usually the rise on these stairs are between 7.66'' and 7.9''.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
You got a tape that reads in decimals, or does 7.9" mean seven inches and nine of those little marks?
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7.9 means a heavy 7 7/8".
If memory serves me correctly, a 14 rise application with 2 x 12 second floor joist needs 7.9.
It's been a while since I've built the stairs, so the numbers aren't automatic anymore.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Just yanking your chain while i wait for reply from original poster.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
andy, is there reasoning in that ratio? Is it because when decending, it is safer to come down sideways? Remember a farmhouse we lived in that had a very steep stair, you could only come down sideways, not a deep enough tread to hit, even if you had a mind to. Course, going up doesn't seem to make a difference.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Reasoning? Only that the stairs work with an 8 ft. ceiling and 2 x 10 joists using only 13 risers and 12 treads. Saves room in the house. Pretty much every house I ever worked in had stairs configured that way. And remember, the 9 in. run is only the distance between the faces of the risers. Each tread is another 1 1/4 in. wider than that rise to provide an overhang.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
I think that you make a good general point. My stairs have a run of 9 and a rise of 8 1/4. Overall they have been satisfactory for 20 years but they are right on the edge. When my father (81) comes for a visit, he needs a good solid handrail to help him with the descent. I have a small house and wanted to limit the space taken up by the stairs and this has been a worthwhile trade off. It would not be for most of the houses we build.
A better place to see where the rule of thumb ratios work is in a very shallow set of stairs. A four inch rise works very poorly with a ten inch run. A thirteen or fourteen inch run will feel much more comfortable.
Local code ammendments often differ on the riser height allowed. They range from the 7" up to 8-1/4" in areas I am aware of. I would imagine builders groups are still trying to alter the rule.
As is most of the mess, commonality with the building codes is nill on alot of issues.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I'm sorry that I am not making myself clear.
All I am trying to find out is how far back do I set the first stair off of the landing as I am going up. It is obvious that you do not line up the rise with the wall coming up from the first string of stairs..... So do I set the first rise, first step, back 4" 6" or the full 10 1/8"?
Our code only speaks to the size of the landing--36". The second run's first riser (or bull nose end of first tread) can fall in line with the first run's outer stringer. Code is 8.25 rise and 9" run. What's your total rise from the platform to the finished second floor? What's your code as to run? How much space do you have to play with?
>> It is obvious that you do not line up the riser with the wall coming up from the first
>> string of stairs.It's not obvious to me. That's exactly where I'd put it. If you object to the tread nose sticking out into the landing space, I suppose you could set the steps back an inch or an inch and a half so that the edge of the nose lined up with the wall, but I don't see any reason to set them back farther than that.
Donny, part of the answer to your question depends on the style of your stairs. I like to do a traditional newel post at the landing. I set it up so the landing nosing dies onto the post, usually right at the corner of the post. The first tread nosing, the one you're asking about, I also like to die onto the post, usually right at the corner.
So guys like to wrap their nosings around the post, which would require a slightly different setup. Just make sure you have 36" clear in both directions at your landing and your head heights all work out.
DonnyD, you can set it back any amount that you want...just don't project it into the other flight.
Different trimmers prefer different setbacks.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Sorry - I still don't understand the question. Wish Iwere at my own 'puter to draw up something. Part of my own mental confusion is that I design and build stairs from bottom up and you are desccccribuing it from top down...
"What kind of a distance do I need to be from the East wall to my riser"
Which riser?
"The tread is 10 1/8""
That tells me nothing without knowing what the run is
- are you saying that when you come down the steps and turn on the landing, you will be facing another wall and want to know how close that wall can be to the landing? If so, I need to know how many steps will be below the landing and what the run per step is
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Are you talking about one of these? Take your pick<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
at 12" in from the inner radius the tread must be the width of the full treads above and below.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
at 12" in from the inner radius the tread must be the width of the full treads above and below.
Yup, and in MA anyway, the finished tread needs to be at least six inches deep at it's smallest point.
6" ya say? bouy am I glad they didnt come and check my old stairs..they came to a POINT..LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Hey Donny whenever I have a landing I try to have half a tread from the lower nosing to the inside corner and half to the first rise going up . In your case 5" eitherway.I think it's the most comfortable way to keep an even stride . Good luck.
............Rik........