I’d like to hear from people in the trades.
What quality of work would you like to see, or expect from your sub-contractors in general?
What quality of work you like to see, or expect from your field staff?
Describe it both in terms as you would to a group of your peers, (as you might to your subs or employees) then as you would to a prospective client.
I would like to see everyone I work with produce product at least close to something I would feel good about saying “I did that!” The only way I can think of conveying that level of quality is through fairly constant monitoring and advisement throughout the process.
Hopefully, or theoretically, those involved will “get it” sooner than later.
Replies
The referred customers pretty much all know that perfection is what is tried for. Long lasting quality is a given. And the least impact possible to their living conditions as we tear the #### outta the place.
The subs I work with regularly were informed in the beginning our expectations regarding scheduling, jobsite conditions, and quality of work. Over time as we work together you can see the pride they take in both their work and the job as a whole.
Something like you wanted?
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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
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There is often a big gap between what a sub says and what they do. Likewise what a client says and what they mean can be two totally different things.
I don't think it's so much a matter of telling either group what levels of quality we are after with carefully chosen words, but a much more involved process not unlike getting a young kid to cut your grass the right way. You can't simply explain it using straight forward terms like grass height, or simply say be careful of the flowers. If the kid knows nothing and is starting from scratch you have a lot of ground to cover, but if the yard next door looks good and you hire the same kid there is less to worry about--it's pretty certain you'll get the same results. Still, imagine all the misunderstanding as special circumstances come up. You're much better off paying the kid with good decision making skills, who produces good results.
Personally, I like to listen to clients, show them pictures, ask the same questions different ways, ask them about past projects, tell some stories, listen some more, show more pictures, ask more questions, etc. for about 20 iterations until we come to some understanding of what will and won't be part of their project. Still, it amazes me how unique every one is and how even good people can do strange things as the project progresses.
When I lived on a rainy, windy island up in Alaska a local doctor said it's hard to tell on the surface which people from the outside would adapt well to island living and which wouldn't do well and would come to him suffering from depression. He said it mattered very little which questions he'd ask when they first showed up, or what their past experiences were--if they had never lived on a remote island they didn't know what they were in for. Clients often start off thinking one thing and end up someplace completely different.
If a client has never contemplated "quality" they are wrestling with a new concept as foriegn as finding a "good" wine without ever tasting the stuff. The simplistic questions are, "do you want the economy car, Chevy or Caddy?" but people only know what they know. Much better to sit in each while discussing what they do and don't like. What bugs them about each. What bugs them about their current car? What do they want to be different?
Are clients more interested in the process or the end result? Quality of process AND end result is much different than a good result at lowest cost. Many will gladly pay extra for the crew who looks "nicer" and keeps things cleaner, even if they don't realize how superficial those things are to the end result.
How are you going to define it? NAHB guidlines are a recognized standard so clients will like that, at least until you let them know how loose they are. I like to explain how the more straight things are the more it will cost and reinforce that at every step and with regard to every part of the building. I've built a floor that was +- 1/16" from one end of the house to the other, but it was twice as expensive. Clients need to be educated as to what quality is.
I think to be somewhat complete the discussion has to touch on gaps in percieved vs. actual quality, definitions and upfront expectations of quality, quality of process vs. end result, the transient nature of quality, communicating quality before/during/after, minimizing gaps in expectations at various stages, and finally selling of quality. There just isn't enough internet ink in me to do any of it justice.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I have said many times to my subs that I expect them to show pride in their work. That, that pride is conveyed by one measure...
How do you do your work when know one is watching. What does the work you do look like when you know know one can see it.
I found my self on an old roof in an area behind the front gable. By this 80 plus year old roofs design it had crown, dentil mold and a complicated compound soffit. The back of this roofs eave, up high where I was, was no less trimmed out in its full glory.
There is no possible way to see this from any point on the property except where I stood. In all these years that area had only been painted once ,when it was built. The wood in this area was all completely bare. Every painter that was ever on that roof didn't paint this eave area. You could clearly tell where they stopped and where they stopped was just after you loose site of the eaves. None of these painters had pride in there work. None of these painters are professionals.
I spent a great bit of time up on that roof priming and painting what hadn't been done since the first paint job. I didn't point this out to the owners I only said that their house has finally got the paint job it deserved.
How do you do your trade when know one is looking. Step up to the respect your craft demands. Take pride in what ever you do. After that everything gets easy.
People who work this way will never disappoint me.
Thanks. Haven't read anything that moving in a while.
Absolutely true and well said!
Something about your comments jogged this memory...
Many years ago I taught drafting and kitchen design at a local 2-year design school. I noticed that I was getting a lot of students from other drafting classes in the kitchen class that turned in drawings that were dirty, smudged and with practically 2-nd grade lettering. When I called them on it, there was soooo much whining about how it didn't matter anyway because everyone was going to be drawing on computers out in the "real world".
In other words, I asked, you take no pride in your work and rely on "helpers" to ensure you can get by with the end product? A bad draftsman is a bad draftsman, hand-done or computer generated.
Once they finished the lettering exercises assigned to them and learned how to better use their tools, they began to take obvious pride in what they turned out. But someone had to point out what wasn't acceptable, demand quality and show them how to produce it.
There just seems to be little of that going around...
I took drafting in the 7th, 8th and 9th grade in CA. We moved back to OK and wasn't allowed drafting until my senior year of high school. I earned a 2 year drafting certification after that 1 year.
I can tell you it wasn't because of my fancy skills it was all that early dam lettering and line studies. The teachers out there were relentless about line weights and lettering heights. And boy....you better use that pig,(eraser bag), a smudgey paper didn't get looked at.
To this day I suffer what my wife calls a fetish, I call a good habit. I like a good sharp pencil, and lots of them. A sharp pencil means I'm ready to go to work. I do buy a lot of pencils. I blame the old days in drafting class.
Even though I have a killer program for all my drawings I always sketch up what I'm doing first. It helps me think through the process better before I go to the drawing program. Besides it justifies the sharp pencils, right?
I also suffer a holdover from my hand-drafting days...to this day I rotate my pencil when drawing a line, with or without my tools!
I've come to rely on sketches and computer drawing both for details. I like to sketch up some iso drawings first, then start on the computer so I can layer sections to see where I have potential problems.
And, while I love sharp pencils, I have gravitated to those expensive Koh-i-Noor mechanicals that I keep losing.
susie,
i haven't touched a drafting pencil since about 1983 when I picked up an A.A. degree in drafting at the local community college-------but those drafting classes earn me thousands each and every year. EVERY class, every semester the first week was spent on lettering exercises--------to this day I rarely write--- I LETTER,LOL my proposals are hand lettered on the spot--- i can't tell you how many customers later tell me---as they are handing me a check----" when I saw how neat your proposal was, i knew you would do a good job for us.
Really-- i can't tell you how many times that has come up----and those are just the people who voiced what they noticed--- who knows how many people noticed--consciously or un-consciously. for a tradesman personally selling handskills--- i can't imagine passing up the opportunity to show that off in advance---it's just part of being professional.BTW-------- if you like a good pencil--- Mirado Black Warrior--an exceptional pencil
( I have a fondness for simple things done well--like a good pencil, good shoes, a good peach---a real tomatoe( not one of those winter grocery store "tumuhtoes" )
stephen.
I Agree with the Hazman.The black warrior is an awesome pencil.I got them everywhere...truck....tool box.....belt ...shop...I have small sharpeners everywhere too.Can't stand a thick line.
Is somthing wrong with me?"Gentle to the touch, exquisite to contemplate, tractable in creative hands, stronger by weight than iron, wood is, as William Penn had said,"a substance with a soul.'"Eric Sloane
I think the black Mirado warrior thing----borders on a cult obsession. sister in law---out of the blue recommended them to us---RAVED about them-----yes i know it's hard to imagine getting so worked up over a pencil
my wife got some---- talked about them non stop, it seemed.
I tried them---Fantastic
simple things done well!!!
stephen
EDIT---- sharp black mirado warrior, a newy york times crossword----and a perfectly poured Sam Adams--what more do i need,
LOL
Edited 7/8/2008 6:54 pm ET by Hazlett
Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee
Helix Oxford HB for me.
I'm a Yuengling man myself but thats a great picture you've drawn.
Another word on the Warrior.....If using on a slanted surface, If set down it will roll away....real fast.Took me awhile to get used to a round pencil."Gentle to the touch, exquisite to contemplate, tractable in creative hands, stronger by weight than iron, wood is, as William Penn had said,"a substance with a soul.'"Eric Sloane
ah, yes yuengling that is a product with another cult following here.
you must be in PA. ???
I am in ohio---- we can't locally buy yuengling here---but it is a prized commodity.
my sister in law lives in Bloomsburg,PA---and is a frequent visitor here--she often brings us a case of Yuengling.
i have a couple of friends and a couple of neighbors that are into Yuengling also-- I don't know how we seperately got into the same thing,but,------when i go to my sister-in-laws place for thanksgiving--or drive through PA on vacation I will often stop----buy 4-5 cases of Yuengling and then give 'em away to friends and neighbors---so the neighbor comes home from work and finds a case of Yuengling anon. delivered to his doorstep!!!!this drives my wife crazy---but as I say" hey---I don't have many friends--but i like to take care of the ones i DO have !"Best wishes, Stephen BTW-- if you get the chance----tour the Yuengling plant---free beer at the end of the tour!!!!
Stephen,
Thanks for the info.Consider yourself to have one more friend.
Tonight I will drink a cold one to you.
Have a great week.
~Mike~"Gentle to the touch, exquisite to contemplate, tractable in creative hands, stronger by weight than iron, wood is, as William Penn had said,"a substance with a soul.'"Eric Sloane
BTW-------- if you like a good pencil--- Mirado Black Warrior--an exceptional pencil
That's exactly what I've found I like best.
I also found another good one the Dixon Ticonderoga HB 2.
If my wife catches me talking pencils I'm doomed!
One more for the Dixon Ticonderoga!!I go with the "Hard" not sure of the #it will make a visible tick mark on prefinished trim but will erase with a rub of my finger..
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
Stephen,
I have the same holdover - I letter quite a bit, especially on something I'll be giving to a customer. People do take notice, which I tried to impress on the students. Hand someone a messy amateurish drawing and they'll think that's an indicator of your work!
Thanks for the tip on the pencil - I'll check it out!
Speaking of tomatoes....the local chain has started carrying something they call "ugly" tomatoes. Looked like a "real" tomato to me, so I check out the label and find it's an heirloom variety. Very tasty!
I am right along with my grandfather there, the man who taught me my work ethic.
grandpa always said "give it a lick and a promise" which was the family joke, because what he wanted was perfect or a little bit better.
i have extremely high standards, i like to see work performed as an art, and i like to show off. many times i call attention to something i have done, both to co-workers and supervisors just to let them know how well it can be done.
i used to play "D" league softball, and it would amaze me how serious some of the wanna be ball players would take it, its a game, for fun, its not a profession. when we get to work thats when i get serious.
Great thread.
I'm a homeowner who's just completed building his third house (moved in last Wednesday).
Great posts above on quality and workmanship but there's another factor that is a little bit quality, a little bit attitude, a little bit understanding the big picture and a little bit about being part of a team.
I expected subs to not only have a high regard for their work but to have the same regard for the work of the other trades and the already in place parts of the house.
For example, if you're the tile guy, don't mess up the hard wood floors spilling thin set on it in a trail to the bathroom. If you're a drywall hanger, don't open the prepainted wood windows (on the inside) with that greasy hand that just stuffed a bag of Nachos into your mouth. If you're the HVAC guy installing the downdraft cooktop vent in the crawlspace, put the insulation back and restaple the netting, leaving it just like you found it. Don't leave it lying in a heap all over the crawlspace floor. And all trades working in the crawl space, haul your trash out of there leaving it clean.
The above are a few examples of what actually happened building my house. Other tradesmen where better but at times there was a "Throw the baby out with the bathwater" mentality. All the work was superior but the ones who understood the big picture were head and shoulders above those who only cared about their little part.
Runnerguy
I agree with all of the above. I think humility and respect plays into the overall quality of a job as well. I do a lot of work in occupied houses, and the job may take 4 months or more, so quality of the experience matters to my clients and me as much as the end result. I expect all of my subs to create a plan of action and to follow through by doing things right, once. They also know that they are never to leave a mess of any kind and to respect the homeowners space. Treat the jobsite like your own home is my mantra. I'm on the job almost all of the time and do a lot of the work myself, so they know they aren't going to get away with anything sub-par, but I'm happy to pay more for the subs that I can leave alone and not worry about. Lots of communication and total honesty also create a better quality job for me. I usually give daily updates to the homeowners since they are living there and see the progress in a very raw way. That helps to soothe nerves and educate them on the big picture.
We're using more more subs these days and find that it's extremely important to put in writing what's expected on each project. From outlet orientation/height to paint drips it all gets spelled out. When I tell the painters that if I can see a defect from 4' it needs to be redone, I get good results.
As remodelman said, conduct is often as important as product. So for us and our subs, things like; no smoking, no tools/supplies/materials touch finish surfaces, floor protection, no sleeveless shirts, trash removal/disposal, clean-up, to what toilet can be used by trades gets discussed and agreed to.
Having a copy of the "Rules" posted to remind the crews helps.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Quality- price - Time
pick two
good - fast - cheap- pick two just another variation, but makes people stop and think about which they REALLY want
I have a little different strategy for employees and subs. For employees I show them what standard they should use for a particular job. I do not want perfection. Some parts of the job need to be close to perfection (cabinets, stairs, trim), other areas do not need to be quite as good (framing) and other areas are made worse if perfection is attempted (drywall hanging). I try to teach the new employee how to make these distinctions and reinforce those lessons by making them redo unacceptable work. There are no words that I could use that would make that kind of impact.
With subs I choose the best subs in the area and tell them that they should take as much time as they need to do the job well. We will pay them whatever it costs. They are always fair with their bills.
In both cases we want everyone on the job to be doing their best work. This does not mean that they are heedless of the cost. They know that we want them to use their judgement in making a cost effective but high quality product. Everyone appreciates the opportunity to make something they are proud of. That they are being paid without question is an added but necessary bonus.
Working for wages at various jobs when I was young, I used to hear this sentiment expressed fairly regularly: "I don't care what he says, I ain't bustin' my butt for no XX dollars an hour!"
I never agreed with that kind of attitude even though I understood some of the resentment behind it. As a result of mulling over the complaints and criticisms of bosses by fellow workers while trying to keep the boss happy, over several years and numerous jobs, I decided to stay sane and contented by quietly looking for small ways to improve my work, all day, everyday.
That was the best work decision I ever made because it allowed me a level of independence almost equal to being my own boss. I still followed instructions with care but I was always trying to improve my technique or do a task more efficiently.
Nonetheless, I made no show of this effort. I just took it on as part of my life aim of general self improvement. As it has turned out, the inner reward for doing my best work, under all circumstances, is much higher and longer lasting than any praise that I might have received from others at the time, no matter how sincere.
Following that way of thinking also made me more aware in the work environment. I credit that awareness for keeping me safe from major injuries and many minor ones for forty years. It has also given me a demeanor which speaks for itself.
That demeanor, coming from many hours, days, weeks and years of striving for a very high standard, is usually evident to others; subs, employees or clients, when we talk about what they can expect from me and what I expect from them.
When we both have an appreciation of quality, it's easy to tell. Very few words are needed. When the other person doesn't have a similar level of respect for high standards, it's pretty obvious too.
I've found that it's better to lay back and be perceptive, rather than trying to impose my standards on others. If we respond to each other's level of character, we're not going to have any problem getting along on the job.
P.S. Thanks for this topic. It's been a very good contemplation and a reminder of how I've gotten where I am.
Edited 7/8/2008 7:38 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Well said Hudson Valley Carpenter! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That really struck a chord with me, as I'm in the process of cold-calling everyone trying to find a job.And I'm at the point where I would be a great employee: self-motivated and (honestly) happy to have a regular paying position.I hope that shines through to someone.
Edited 7/8/2008 1:02 pm ET by Biff_Loman
try the old i'll work for free for a week routine to get your foot in the door. if you get a chance to show what you can do, and someone actually needs another employee your in.
Off Topic--
I used to get hired quickly by going out to job sites and speaking directly with the boss. Nothing like a pair of bright eyes and some fresh energy to put yourself in the best light as a potential employee.
If I were you I wouldn't volunteer the information about your former business as a contractor. That might impress some people but it'll probably cause more of them to see you as potential competition, someone who might steal a client or even just a small side job.
I'd wait to be asked before saying anything about contracting and then tell them that you've given it up because it takes too much time away from your family. That's something we all understand and respect.
One thing I found difficult when switching hats was giving up the initiative, the leadership role. I recall one winter, working in Florida, when I got fired from two jobs in a couple of months because I had a hard time adjusting to waiting for instructions, then keeping my mouth shut when I knew a better way to do it.
It's all a big chuckle now but it was quite a struggle then, to put a sock in it. ;-)
Edited 7/8/2008 2:03 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter