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I plan to use a staple-up system so as not to disturb existing floors on the 1st floor of my house. Are the aluminum plates available a good idea or a waste of money? I already have tubing in the slab of my newly created basement.
On the 2nd floor (attic conversion), I am thinking of using the Stadler Climatepanels over the 3/4 T&G subfloor. Any experience with these?
Thanks in advance.
Getting the details right for a wall assembly with the control layers to the exterior and lots of drying potential.
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Replies
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Bear-
The aluminum plates are highly suggested to deliver the heat into a room. They simulate the concrete slab that you have on the first floor. The plates pull the heat out of the tubes and distributes it evenly accross the floor. If you have carpeted rooms that you are trying to heat, it won't work without the plates. The plates also add a safety factor to your wood floors so you don't dry them out and have expansion damage to your floors.
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The aluminium plates will allow you to use lower water temperatures (so your water heater might be another 1% more efficient) and less tubing than if you go fin-less. But they cost something, so it's a trade-off. How tight is your house? Energy demands (BTU/hour/sq.ft./degreeF) can vary 100-fold from old, drafty, uninsulated houses to new, tight, high-R houses. The heat you need to transfer from/through the flooring will be corresponding high or low. So a leaky house needs hot floors and hotter water in the pipes versus a tight house that needs only slightly warm floors and water.
Regarding wood floor expansion: For most houses, the wood floors shrink in winter due to low humidity rather than expand in winter due to hot floors. In a tight house, the floors will only be about 80F (and dry). They get hotter than that (and moister) in the summer.
In summary: In a tight house, skip the fins. Use them (and space pipes closer) in a loose house. Seasonal control of humidity will help your wood floors, skin, comfort, stop the towels mildewing in the summer, and the static sparks in the winter.
Typing with warm, bare feet in an Alaskan, radiant-heated basement,
David
*DAVE...Dave...dave....???How irresponsible is the statement in your post?:"" If you have carpeted rooms that you are trying to heat, it won't work without the plates. The plates also add a safety factor to your wood floors so you don't dry them out and have expansion damage to your floors. ""You are employed by Radiant Technologies, correct??Are you not a representative of the above manufacturer who makes a significant profit fron the sale of aluminum plates?Shame on you DaveH for causing alarm in the minds of the thousands upon thousands of homeowners who have radiant heat responsibly designed and installed WITHOUT plates. Let them step up to the PLATE and ensure us that your "scare tactics" are true.Jeff McGough
*David Thomas,I agree with all you say except the statement: "less tubing than if you go fin-less."That may be true if you are placing the tube on top of the subfloor. However, in a suspended between the floor joist application, the spacing remains the same. IMO, 8" OC. Slow the flow to an average 10-20 degree DeltaT. Regardless of what the plate marketeers will lead you to believe, if the air space between the tube and the bottom of the subfloor reaches an ambient temperature anywhere close to the supply water temperature, the heat will conduct thru the assembly. Maybe not as fast but if you have sufficient resistance below the tube(R-Factor), where else do you suppose it would go? Since when did aluminum plates create their own BTU's? So what if the supply water enters the cavity at 120F and exits at 115F? Slow it down to match the heat load. Will the boiler run longer on a 5 degree deltaT? I think not.Heat transfer is a function of resistance. Create a greater resistance on the cold side and Dr.Science will take care of the rest.I have over-simplified the situation at best. Plates have a prominent place in the responsible design of RFH. That place should be more predominate in the overall scheme of the design, not your check-book to enrichen some manufacturer.
*Does anyone have any experience with an above the subfloor aluminum plate installation system such as the Stadler "Climate Panel System" (www.radiant-floorheating.com) or the Wirsbo "Quick Track System." They are 1/2" underlayment panels with grooves to accept 5/16" PEX tubing with a built in aluminum panel that is designed to replace Gypcrete or lightweight concrete installations.
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Hello bearmon,
If you do decide to use aluminum fins - you can make your own from aluminum flashing. I realize pure alum will transfer more heat, however, we use the fins to hold the tubing up tight against the sub-floor allowing for better heat transfer. Stapling allows sagging and occasionally pinches the tubing. I use fins of different lengths and power staple the fins to the subfloor as needed to hold the tubing close to the wood. In areas that require more heat (bathroom, parameter, entry ways) I use longer fins. If you have interest e-mail me and I will share how to make a jig and cut aluminum.
Neil Glass
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Bearmon,
Are you using leftover tubing that you scabbed from all those ski resort parking lots? I still cringe at that 11000(?) foot paver job you mentioned.
Most staple-up installations require, or suggest, a reflective foil surface below the tubing. On my first floor I used 1/2 inch foil-faced foam insulation under the tubing, friction-fit between the joists, with R-19 fiberglass below that.
I've got TJI's 19.2" OC with 3/4 ply subfloor, 1/2" underlay, and 5/16" laminated brazilian cherry strip flooring (glue down) on top of that. I used 5/8ths inch tubing on the first floor, two runs per bay, 1/2 inch on the second floor. Used almost 2000' of tubing per floor, each floor is about 1600 sq ft.
My setup runs around 95 degrees at 12 psi. Ten loop manifold first floor, 8 loops upstairs. With no plates and 1.5 inches of flooring for the heat to go through, I've got no complaints. My 6-year old calls the heated floor "comfortland". I'm in New England, BTW. Cold, but not severe winters.
If you make your own plates, be careful with the edges. The tube does expand/contract, and I've heard stories of the tube chafing on the rough edges of the panel.
I don't have experience with the Stadler Climatepanels, but am also looking to do the attic with tubing on top of the subfloor between sleepers. I've asked around but haven't gotten much decent advice to date. I'll pass any future words your way.
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Mongo -
I'm moving back into a 100 yr old house this summer, and need some heat added before I freeze another winter in it.
Did you use PEX tubing? How'd you get between framing bays - drill them, or just jump below?
What's your heat source? I'm considering adding a separate water heater - is it better to go with a small one, or larger? (I'm going to work this monster in zones, probably only the first floor this year, but need to work the second floor if we ever expect visitors in the winter).
Jim
*MongoHave you heard of wirsbro tubing? Did you make your own manifolds? How did you know how much tubing to run. Is there a reference for under the subfloor use? I've been looking for a good installation book but found little. Thanks E
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Earl,
All the tube makers will give you layouts for free. Call some of the ads.
Near the stream,
J
*Yes, I've heard of Wirsbro.The manifolds I used are modular, in that you buy as many "in" and "out" valves as you need. They stack together, "O" rings, etc, for water tightness, then a threaded rod is run horizontally though the whole setup to secure the valves together.My "FEED" or "OUTPUT" manifold is color-coded red by the manufacturer. Each zone valve can either be set manually or adjusted by an after market motor ($$$)that will open and close the valve to fine tune water flow according to a combination of indoor room temp and outdoor temperature. While one manifold feeds an entire floor, each zone can control specific room temps in the house.The "RETURN" manifold is color coded blue. Each zone has a 16 position valve to manually control the amount of water that passes through the individual loops. If the motorized valves ($$$) on the outflow manifold are used, the manual valve on the return is set full open. If you opt to save buckets of cash by not motorizing each loop, the manual 16 position valve on the return manifold is used to control the temperature and the valve on the outflow side is set wide open.I also put a temp probe on the outflow and return lines, as well as an air purger.You can do a heat-loss calc to figure heating loads, but as Jack wrote, most manufacturers will do the load calc and tube layout design for you. In spite of having TJI's 19.2 OC, which was spec'd out, all designs came back from the suppliers showing my layout as 16" and requiring two 1/2" runs of tube per joist bay. I did my own calcs, ran two runs per bay, but upped it to 5/8th inch tubing. PEX with O2 barrier.I don't know if I have any reference material for under-floor installation. I'll dig and see what treasures I find. Do get a proprietary staplegun and staples from the tube supplier, though. The staples have a thick plastic "U" to keep the tubing from getting damaged. To be honest, there's not a whole lot to installing it. A bit of technique to pulling the loops, but after a couple of runs it's a snoozer.Ask away if you need more specifics.
*Jim, *Yes, PEX. *Drilled. My runs are shorter then allowed, I ran 7 joist bays per loop on average. TJI's made drilling a breeze.*Oil fired. In terms of sizing the water heater, you have me there. I do believe I may have seen info on this over on the wall, you may want to check that out and ask there once you get your heat load calcs done.It'll be a few days, but I'll see if I have nay paperwork left from my design/layout days that I can send to you. If so, I'll notify.Good luck, it'll be worth the effort!
*Jim, I found this thread over on the other site. A few responses have some details re: water heater usage.
*As Mongo says installation is easier said then done...Nothing in construction is this easy.Near the stream and a drillin and pullin and staplin fool,J
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I plan to use a staple-up system so as not to disturb existing floors on the 1st floor of my house. Are the aluminum plates available a good idea or a waste of money? I already have tubing in the slab of my newly created basement.
On the 2nd floor (attic conversion), I am thinking of using the Stadler Climatepanels over the 3/4 T&G subfloor. Any experience with these?
Thanks in advance.