Replies

1. 
   Ron_Budgell | Nov 21, 2000 02:35am | #1

   *
   Are you an agent provocateur? Is this a troll?

   I'll give you a serious reply, anyway. Staples are better than anything else for fastening hardwood floors, sheathing, subfloors, strapping, cedar shingles, anything else thin where you want strength and don't care about the appearance of the fastener.

   In hardwood, a little creaking is normal until the floor settles down - a matter of days.

   To give you an idea about the holding power of a staple, it's common for a staple to pull through the wood rather than come free of the subfloor when you're removing a piece from a stapled hardwood floor. Two 2" staples through a piece of strapping into a dry joist will hold my weight and I'm a pretty big guy.

   I use a 7/16" crown Senco M2 for all the things listed above. That tool paid for itself on its first job - 7 years ago.

1. 
   GACC_DAllas | Nov 21, 2000 02:48am | #2

   *Ditto Mr. Budgell,I saw one flooring contractor (one out of many I've known over the many years I've been involved with this) who left an 1/8" gap between every tenth run or so to allow for expansion. It seemed to work. When it was all said and done, the gaps had closed. I've only seen expansion buckle one floor so far, and I've probably seen sixty or seventy floors layed.Staples are the way to go. As Martha sez.....It's a good thing.Ed. Williams

1. 
   Phill_Giles | Nov 21, 2000 05:42am | #3

   *I looked at a Senco floor "stapler" at a show last year; I was surprised that it didn't use a hammer. Senco also makes both pneumatic and manual cleat drivers; and, I notice that Stanley seems to have dropped their floor stapler and gone with all cleats.

1. 
   Ken_fisher | Nov 21, 2000 02:42pm | #4

   *Staples(2") definately have better holding power, and the proof is in trying to remove a floor that has been stapled as opposed to one that has been nailed.Ed:Did they pull the penny jar out? I've seen that suggested as well for spacing.

1. 
   Tim_Kline | Nov 22, 2000 12:15am | #5

   *b WBA At Your ServiceWe just laid a gym floor and spaced every eighth board with weed wacker string.

2. 
   George_Abramshe | Nov 22, 2000 12:23am | #6

   *Where are these people buying this wood that you would need to space strip hardwood flooring???? I've installed a hundred or so floors and never had a call back for buckling. I also buy only from a reputable hardwood flooring wharehouse/distibutor. They will not even sell you the product if the moisture content is to high. I saw one new salemen fired for unloading a batch that hadn't acclimated to the wharehouse temp yet. Maybe spacing is standard and I'm doing something wrong, but I've seen no reason to yet as long as the floor is acclimated.

3. 
   Ron_Budgell | Nov 22, 2000 12:49am | #7

   *I don't lay much hardwood floor - maybe two or three a year. I'd like to see somebody else try that floor spacing thing before I do. When it comes to things like that, that is, tricks of the trade where you pay a big price if they don't work, I have only one thing to say - cluck, cluck, cluck.Ron

4. 
   Ron_Morris | Nov 22, 2000 01:38am | #8

   *Ron, Neither, an agent provocateur or trolling a builder and new home owner. I've lived in my house for approximately 4 months. The floors are spreading and popping. I've built approximately 450 homes and never had this trouble. Although,I've never used maple before. I guess it is possible that it was not dry enough at installation.

5. 
   Ron_Budgell | Nov 23, 2000 03:11am | #9

   *Ron,Your experience in homebuilding puts mine to shame. I'm going to ask you the questions from now on. Do you have monsoons where you live? I don't know what else can explain the floor shifting after months except extreme hiumidity changes.

6. 
   Crusty_ | Nov 23, 2000 09:30am | #10

   *Ron M., what have you used in the past that has been so successful? (Will be putting a floor down in a couple of months, and would appreciate your suggestions).

7. 
   Michael_Eckert | Nov 23, 2000 05:39pm | #11

   *Ron,Every hardwood floor manufacturer warns about using extra care when setting strips with air staplers. The air pressure must be set to prevent the tops of the staples from blowing through the tongue. I use a Stanley Air Stapler and really watch the air guage as I go along. Split the tongue and you'll swear there are rice krispies under the floor. BTW: Is the floor installed over a crawlspace or basement? Any felt or rosin paper installed between the subfloor and strips? 3/4" expansion space left between wall plates and obstacles?

8. 
   Ralph_Wicklund | Nov 24, 2000 04:24am | #12

   *While we're on the subject... Does anyone have any thoughts, pro/con, or experience to share about using oak t&g in the kitchen? Kitchen remodel coming up first week in January and will be putting in approx. 200sf.

9. 
   George_Abramshe | Nov 24, 2000 05:26am | #13

   *Ralph ,if at all possible sand and get at least the sealer and one coat on before cabinet installation. Two reasons, it cuts down on uneven t&g and makes base cabinets easier to install, you don't have to pull dishwasher,frig,etc. out to finish and their is no need to rent or use a toe kick sander. Also if they ever remodel later it will be uniform for the next phase. Also you want to make sure that where people stand in front of stove and base cabinets is nailed off well. When you walk through a room you might not hit the same squeak twice, but when you stand in front of one spot(i.e. the sink) and there is a squeak under your foot every time your there , it becomes very obvious.

10. 
    Ralph_Wicklund | Nov 24, 2000 06:13am | #14

    *Toe-kick sander will have to be used. They are keeping their current cabinets. And I have to pull the dishwasher, frig and range to install the floor. Also have to pull up the old floor which is 12x12 ceramic tile over cement board over diagonal board subfloor. But I do get to do fun stuff to expand the kitchen like tear out the existing pantry and old air handler closet (cement floor where the old kerosene or oil heater used to be) and remove that cement floor too. Build in some fancy shelving and bench seating with underseat storage. And a little structural work to keep the second floor and stairway from ending up in the kitchen.I guess I'm more worried about potential water damage, expansion and buckling of the floor if the customer is careless with the water in the sink or the dishwasher leaks.

11. 
    George_Abramshe | Nov 25, 2000 04:31am | #15

    *Don't know if you can do anything to prevent or make floor more resistant to water damage, at least not in my experience. Another line of thought though, since the area in question will probaly be a high traffic pattern and will actually get 'paths' within first couple of years, light screening and another coat of poly every couple of years for the first decade or so might build up a better resistance or top coat. Just a thought.

12. 
    Ron_Morris | Nov 29, 2000 02:41am | #16

    *Michael, The floor is over a finished and heated basement. We also installed 15# felt before the wood. Now I'm not so sure if they left the 3/4" expansion all around. I forgot to check behind them.on

13. 
    Ian.D.Gilham. | Nov 29, 2000 03:06am | #17

    *Ron,Is there any cupping of the boards visible -- either concave or convex?

14. 
    Ian.D.Gilham. | Nov 29, 2000 03:09am | #18

    *--- and are the joints opening up?

15. 
    blue_eyed_devil_ | Nov 30, 2000 01:51am | #19

    *Michael, watching the air guage is kinda wrong. Air tools need to have a consistent air pressure to function properly. I've never been able to satifactorily lower the air pressure and get consistent results.I have ground down a few drivers or two in my day however. That allows me to keep the air pressure high enough to properly cycle the tool.blue

16. 
    Sam_Morgan | Dec 04, 2000 04:14pm | #20

    *Ron, The problem is the wood,,,not the installation. My hardwood installer says that maple always shrinks,,,end of story. Every one of my clients that asks for a maple floor gets an education first and signs a waiver stating that they will not hold us responsible for any cracks in joints that show up in the future. This guy has installed lots of floors for me,,,and the maple is the only type of wood we have ever had problems with. Good Luck.SamP.S. I'm suprised no one has made this comment yet.

17. 
    Ian.D.Gilham. | Dec 04, 2000 10:07pm | #21

    *Ron,I also think the problem is not with the staples but with the movement of the timber being more than any fixing could cope with. I have come across a couple of similar problems on hardwood floors over a heated room below, especially if they have been finished with an impervious coating, which is why I asked about distortion of the boards.

18. 
    Greg_Warren | Dec 06, 2000 02:28am | #22

    *I have been a wood floor contractor for 20 years. The National Wood Floor Association states that staples are one of the accepted fasteners. Staples need to meet the sped of 1 3/4 to 2 inch, 1/2 crown. Spacing down the line every 10 to 12 inches on raised foundations. I space every 6 inches myself. Association members also take the stand that if your floor is moving due to shrinkage, creating popping/cracking noises, one should invest in a humidifier attached to your furnace system to maintain 50% relative humidity during cold/dry months. These situations you specify are not due to poor installation unless you can determine that the nailing register was improper. People need to understand that buying a wood floor has some risk. They are alive due to moisture content, and can play when changes in that level occur. Wood floors in kitchens are fine with oil urethane finishes. Spacing floors during installation is a regional factor due to high humidity. It is disaster in a low humidity region which has problems with shrinkage.

19. 
    Michael_Eckert | Dec 06, 2000 03:52am | #23

    *Blue,I should have been more specific. I start my run and adjust my pressure until I get a consistent set. Then I leave it alone.But when someone switches over from using a portanailer to using an air stapler the tendency is to just hook up the hose and start driving staples. Michael

2. 
   Ron_Morris | Dec 06, 2000 03:52am | #24

   *
   I have found a new flooring contractor that uses staples when installing 3/4 inch oak tongue and groove flooring. The one floor that is now finished seems to be moving a considerable amount (popping and creeking). Any comments? I've asked him to stop using these staples but he insists that it is okay.