Still working on an older 50’s ranch that’s about as level and square as any other old home. Question: how to start the vinyl starter strip off so that I don’t have an issue at the fascia? I don’t have a soffit, to measure down from.
thanks,
-D
getting frustrated.
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Replies
Create a plane to measure off of. Just because there is no soffit there has to be something up there to reference off of.
I agree Mark. There has to be a top piece. The goal will to have the top piece finish well. You don't want the top piece to show a line that is traveling out of paralell. If you don't start your theoretical layout at the top, you might end up with a perfectly level top piece of siding that looks like it is out of level by an inch or more. Remodeling is part science and a lot of art. Mix them well. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
For vinyl siding I use the top of the doors or windows and figure course adjustments from that. You need to stay real close to those elements that catch the eye the most.
"....top piece that finishes well...."
I find that making a story stick for the siding provides much more useful information than measurements alone. My sticks show the top, bottom, center bends and top nailing flange. Draw seams and bends in black Sharpie, all other in light pencil.
I can hold a story stick up against any area and easily get an impression of how the finished job will look.
"If I start the siding here how will it look next to this window, door, soffit, corner....?"
Once you know where you want the bottom of the siding, placement of the starter strip becomes a minor math problem.
Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I'll use that one myself.
I ussualy end up with a bunch of lay out marks around seral windows while sarching for the right over all look.
Now I'm just going to make up your story pole and slide it up or down as needed.
thanks.
Yes, I've used the story pole too. I think we all agree that the main goal is to make the most out of the visual components that are present there on the walls we are covering. Windows, top and bottom, and doors and the frieze all are important elements. Usually the bottom foundation is the least important. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
>> Usually the bottom foundation is the least important.<<
But unfortunately, the place you have to start!
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
"But unfortunately, the place you have to start!"Yes, you start there, but typically you have many options to optimize the more visible and important design elements on a wall. On a vinyl job, the siding is often held off the grade 8" or more. If you fudge it down 1" to accommodate the top, who would complain? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, the bottom is the place we have to start, my contention is that the bottom is where people look, not the top.
I haven't measured from the top for vinyl siding since1982. Complete waste of time. Now if I was installing wood or cement products, that is a different story. Remember there is very little you can do with vinyl compared with other products. That being said, very few newcomers know how to start wood or cement boart like the oldtimers.
"Remember there is very little you can do with vinyl compared with other products. "Exactly. That's why it's MORE important to understand what the final piece on the wall is going to do. I'm far less concerned with wood products than I am with vinyl but I still wouldn't consider running the starter course without knowing what the final course is going to look like. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Idon't get it Jim. I don't see where the top piece that is overwelmed by the soffit , will make a difference. To me it's more important for the siding to be level, and straight at the start. I have never had anyone complain the top, but have had people complain if the bottom doesn't look right.
"To me it's more important for the siding to be level, and straight at the start."I don't know where you've come up with the idea that I'm advocating putting on a starter course out of level or crooked. I'm not advocating that as a general rule. There are rare cases where it is advantageous, as an aesthetic decision to run the courses out of level but that is a very uncommon situation. I am suggesting that it's very important to optimize the visual on the top piece. The goal is to eliminate the situation that results in the last course having a piece that goes from 3/4" to nothing as it nails up to the frieze. To tweak that situation, it might make more sense to drop the level starter course 2". Then, the final piece might still be running out of level but it will be 2 3/4" to 2", which is much less harsh on the eyes. I might do a little better and start the bottom course 3/8" out of level. That would result in the last course running 2 3/8" to 2", which probably would not be noticeable.Do you think you could discern the bottom course running 3/8" out of level if the grade is running up and down and out of level 6" from front to back? That's what you seem to be saying. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I can. If you need to hide 3/8, you can drop the one side of the soffit and pick it up. Then you can hide another 3/8 by using both J cnannel with finish trim dropped insid the J channel. I agree that 3/4 might look bad, but there are ways to hide<G>
I'm only using the soffit as an example. Sometimes the issues are windows, friezes, porch roofs, balconies...a hundred different items. Be careful of bragging that you can see a starter course running 3/8" out of level. I might pull out my CAD program and test the old eyes lol.Anyways, I hope you have taken the discussion in the right frame of mind. We all have different opinions on what is the best way to solve all the minor little problems that accompany a remod project. Some would suggest jacking the house back up level. Other would say bulldoze. I say "trick the eye" and you say "keep the bottom course level, no matter what". Diversity is what makes the world go round. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Just telling you what works for me, I have installed too many squares on unevel buildings. It's like if you read the instal manual for siding, they tell you to keep it plum. Doesn't always work that way or would look right that way.
And I'm telling you what works for me. Like I said, diversity make the world go round. I too have worked on many out of level conditions. Working on level buildings is easy. Working on out of level, out of square and wavy buildings present a challenge of their own. If it was easy, anyone could do it. I've ran the siding exactly level and ran it slightly out of level. I've done it both ways and maybe you might at least consider it the next time you are trying to optimize the very visible pieces that abut the window s and other horizontal items. You might find that it's possible to accomplish a lot with very little tweaking. I'm not at all concerned with violating a manufacturer's edict to run the siding "plumb" as you suggested. I think you are stretching your argument by making that point. On a 30' long wall, the 3/8" out of level course would translate into a very, very tiny measurement for out of plumbness. I think my mental math tells me that the corner would be (.375 / 30 x 8) or about 3/32" out of plumb over the full corner. If each course is 8", that out of plumb dimension would be (3/32" / 12) or...well.... that number is so small it doesn't register on my vision or scale or any tool I own. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 7/17/2008 2:42 pm by Jim_Allen
I am lucky in that in NY, like in MI where you formally lived, we have basements and tend to have level or mostly level buildings. I can only imagine how out of level buildings built on slabs can be.
I agree, we each have our ways of doing things, my experience tells me that worrying about measuring down from soffit is very highly overrated.
Since I have yet to install my 1st piece of vinyl siding, I'm curious. Can't you cheat each course a little? In other words, if I were running wood or cementitious siding and had an inch in 20 ft to deal with, I'd take an 1/8" off 8 courses to make the last piece true. I also might cheat up or down a little to keep from having a sliver at the top. Wont that work with vinyl?http://grantlogan.net
.......nature abhors a vacuum cleaner.....
Good question Grant. In my experience, it's not a great idea to cheat the vinyl siding....not that I haven't had to do it. I prefer to snap the siding in, then let it find it's own equilbrium. I then center the nail. This ensures maximum ability to move under during their extreme expansion and contraction cycles. So, yes it's possible to cheat a little. 1/8" would be a lot though but even that is possible. It's a bad idea to cheat it down. If you do that, it's more likely to get grabbed by the wind and zipped out. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Yes, although unlike Jim I don't let it seek equalibrium. I always push the siding up, not stretching but tight to the one underneath. The reason is that I have had siding come unlocked when you don't keep it snug. I must emphasise not to overly stretch it. Now I will go against that by saying you can stretch it some, maybe1/16 each panel without a problem.
Now as to your question, don't try to make up an inch in 8 panels, you will have some problems if you do!
"Remodeling is part science and a lot of art. Mix them well."
You got that right. Anyways I've been stepping back and letting the mind wrap
around this one. I'm sure it's obvious for you guys with more experience, but sounds
like my pursuit of level is where my issue is. If I stay parallel to the fascia, I'd
probably have less frustration. I'd like to snap some lines to see how it would look
once I get up by the windows. Again... I'm missing something simple, how do I
account for the affect of snapping together each course so I'm accurate?
Thanks Jim and everyone else for chiming in on a noob's thread.
-D
Old houses s*ck
I just dig out the existing corner enough to find top of foundation. Then measure up enough to leave 1/2" overhang, mark it at all corners. Pull chalk lines for top of starter. Check with level, if close, run with it.
Pulling down from soffit is a waste of time. You can finish off the top with Jchannel, with undersill in side if you need 1/2" if you need it.
When you pull from soffit, I find different installers pull the siding up differently, causing differences at the top, so why bother.